Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Mike of the North's column >>

MIKE OF THE NORTH

Just another guy trying to make his way.
Articles Posted: 25  Links Seeded: 8
Member Since: 12/2008  Last Seen: 5/15/2012

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Assasination of an American Citizen

Sun Oct 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT
politics
By Mike of the North
Advertise | AdChoices

Anwar al-Awlaki deserves no praise, no honor. But no matter how beneficial to the safety and security of the United States his death is, the circumstances of it leaves us in a much darker place. The planned, calculated and targeted killing of an American Citizen abrous by the American government opens  Pandora's box of nightmares.I do not doubt the government's claim that he perpetrated, assisted and inspired terrorist activities against the United States but at the time of his death he was not engaged in combat against American forces, he was not carrying out a terrorist attack and was not an imminent threat. Despite that, no attempt was made to capture and arrest, he was killed by remote control.

Can the United Stages government kill a U.S. Citizen without due process? If so, under what conditions and what criteria must be met?

According to President Obama, the answer to the first question is 'Yes We Can'. The justification by the Obama administration, more specifically the Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, was that he was a 'terrorist'.But no due process is required in being found a terrorist either.

Republican representative Peter King's (New York) response was even more terrifying. "It was entirely legal. If a citizen takes up arms against his own country, he becomes an enemy of the country." King's assertion that he 'took up arms against his own country' is our constitutions definition of TREASON, a crime which a person must be CONVICTED of, meaning the application of DUE PROCESS. Would Rep King consider our founding fathers and the continental army terrorists?

A CBS analyst Juan Zarate said that the administration has been trying to make it clear that the killing was an act of 'self defense' and performed under the 'rules of self defense'. In contrast if I am attacked by my neighbor and I fear he may do it again tomorrow, I cannot kill him in his sleep and call it 'self defense'. He must be a present and imminent threat to my life.

I won't even touch on the debate over international laws on warfare which appear violated.

What does this mean for us in our future. Well it has been established that you can be marked as a terrorist secretly and without due process and by Defense Secretary Panetta's statements, be killed with no attempt to charge,arrest, try, or convict you of any crime nor submit any evidence to any court to obtain permission for such an order. Terrorism as defined by U.S. law is the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives

By that definition, was Timothy McVeigh legally a terrorist? Most would say yes. Would a predator drone strike have been authorized on him?

To further add to the legal confusion, two others were killed in the strike including another American, NOT on the 'target' list. Two 'not-so-innocent' but also not charged or convicted bystanders killed for simply being with him at the wrong time. Suppose Timothy McVeigh picked up a hitch hiker, an unwitting family member or friend while the man hunt was on for him, would a drone strike STILL be legal?

Would WE allow another nation to target/ kill people on OUR soil SUSPECTED or ASSOCIATED with SUSPECTED terrorists?

Obama fought hard for constitutional rights and due process for Guantanamo detainees and though I disagreed that they should be extended to foreign combatants picked up on the battlefield, I THOUGHT he at least was acting in principal that no one should be denied due process and fair trials but as proven by this order, and the method used to accomplish it, it is evident that in HIS view the right to trial and due process does NOT apply to AMERICANS.

This is a dangerous precedent he has set. These questions, the limits of government power especially when it comes to revoking the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, NEED to be ANSWERED AND DEFINED. The ONLY way to accomplish this is to charge and try President Barrack Obama,  Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, CIA Director David Petraeus and anyone else involved in the authorization  and implementation of carrying out this attack with MURDER.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Mike of the North's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: none
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (222)
mountainfirefall

A loud and accurate presentation of truth and query!

Damn.

powerful article, powerful.

why no comments? where are all the righteous? would like some to address this very apt statement of our nations behavior and the role our president is taking upon himself.

Well it has been established that you can be marked as a terrorist secretly and without due process and by Defense Secretary Panetta's statements, be killed with no attempt to charge,arrest, try, or convict you of any crime nor submit any evidence to any court to obtain permission for such an order.

  • 7 votes
#1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 12:10 PM EDT
Mariyam

Well here's two of them: Response to the Question

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT
Chris-382117

I am happy as dammit that Al-Awlakiis now sharing a room with Bin Laden in Hell, I'm not happy with how it was done because it sets a dangerous precedent.

I served with the 3rd Marine in Quang Tri and Thua Thien Provinces of Vietnam From 68 through 69. One morning outside of Cam Thanh, I watched some ARVN Soldiers drag two guys that they suspected of being Charlie Sympathizers out into the road, put a .45 to their heads and put an end the issue. At the time as an 18 year old Marine, my thought was "who gives a simple Sh!t?" because I thought they might have helped get some of my brother Marines hurt or killed. I've had almost 45 years to rethink the happenings of that day and come to the conclusion that if we do as they do, we are no better than they are. That is the difference between "us" and "them" isn't it?

I want he and all of his ilk to be removed from this earth in the most painful way possible since I personally knew people that died in the 9/11 attack, but I want it done by the numbers. Perhaps, prior to the strikes on people like this, congress can pass a special bill to strip these people of their citizenship because of their association with and work toward terrorist acts against the US and fellow citizens. Do it in a similar way as was outlined by Edward Everett Hale in his classic short story "The Man Without a Country."

If he is an American Citizen and engages in these acts, strip him of his citizenship and make him Persona non garta; a true Man without a Country. Then, whatever is done to him is completely acceptable under our laws because he is truly "not one of ours." Congress, after all, has the power to bestow citizenship. If they can bestow it, they should also be able to take it away; problem solved!

I would have personally been willing to build the fire over which to have him slowly roasted alive on a spit. I would have been willing to pay a lot of good money for Box Seats to watch he and his friends be Drawn, Hanged, and Quartered and cheered for the disenbowler all the way. But I want it to happen only if it is done by the letter of the law. We can't just pick and choose which citizen we give protection of the constitution to without jeopardizing those same protections for us all.

He was born in this country and, as much as I hate giving the protection to the miserable bastards, until we either change the 14th amendment regarding "Birthright Citizenship" or, by action of congress remove from him the right to be counted as an American Citizen, then his has to be afforded the same protection as you or me. When you start to pick and choose who you protect, for whatever reason, you start down the slippery slope toward tyranny. In the play A Man for All Seasons, Sir Thomas More argues with his future son-in-law, William Roper, about just that concept. The exchange goes:

Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!

More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'roundon you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?

Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake, not for his!

People might want to rethink what could happen by allowing a clear cut logging company to go after that thick stand of planted laws that we have. Taking away from one takes away from all.

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:37 PM EDT
Linda Luke

Our government has the power to make anyone a terrorist including YOU. Our freedoms have been taken away. The reputation of our country has been soiled. It is time to quit the nonsense that has given our government powers which they should not have. No one man or group of men should have this power. Bush & Cheney started this nonsense and it needs to stop NOW. Get rid of the Patriot Act and if Obama is tried then so should Bush & Cheney be tried.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:49 PM EDT
SpoxLogic

You are absolutely correct, Mike. Nice article by the way. Yet, I wonder if in the end, like most things, the blame doesn't come down to us? Under Clinton ,the ytried to pass the Patriot Act after the Oaklahoma City bombing. However, that even wasn't enough to make people stricken with fear. So, cue 9-11 - now that worked. As long as we keep fearing terrorism at the level we've been made to fear it, the govt (Dem or Repub) will use it to slowly strip away right after right. One day we will wake up and find the America we know only exists in the history books. The Constitution - gone!

As a people, we've now given up freedoms for so-called security, and in the end, we have neither. (nod to Ben Franklin for his quote).

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 2:09 PM EDT
addMoreJuice.comDeleted
mountainfirefall

and what his the 'history' of 'enemy combatant'.... it recently underwent some 'changes'.

    #1.6 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 3:43 PM EDT
    Another Colonel

    Spox,

    Under Clinton ,the ytried to pass the Patriot Act after the Oaklahoma City bombing. However, that even wasn't enough to make people stricken with fear

    Are you trying to say the Patriot Act is responsible for the killing of a US citizen without due process? You may need to cite chapter and verse for this one to be credible.

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 4:01 PM EDT
    Lampell

    NO Due Process... kill them before they kill us!

    What about the genteleman who has been accused of being the mastermind behind 9/11, the one that Holder wanted to try in civilian court in NYC? Why dont we just take him out and shoot him? What is the difference?

    • 1 vote
    #1.8 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 6:08 PM EDT
    Marshall James

    great article..voted up

    • 3 votes
    #1.9 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 6:14 PM EDT
    Anatoly-Rex

    I think this bull@!$%#, partly stirred up by Ron Paul, is pretty funny in the sense that the sticking point is not that they killed a man without due process but rather than they killed an AMERICAN without due process - thereby implying none of the people speaking out on this would really care if the exactly same crime had been committed against a Frenchmen or a Russian.

      #1.10 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 6:48 PM EDT
      The Dire DiscipleDeleted
      Linda Luke

      I woke up sometime in 2008 and found that the country I knew was gone. It goes further and further each year. It isn't ever coming back.

      • 2 votes
      #1.12 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:24 PM EDT
      Chris-382117

      Anatoly-Rex

      thereby implying none of the people speaking out on this would really care if the exactly same crime had been committed against a Frenchmen or a Russian.

      That is correct. Frenchmen or Russians have no guaranteed right to due process under the 5th amendment to the constitution; a US born Citizen DOES have that right under the Constitution. Perhaps you missed that.

      Are you suggesting that we give one person protection under the constitution and deny it to another? Are you suggesting that we revert to what we did with Japanese Americans in 1942 and relocate them all to interment camps because they are "associated with the Enemy"? Perhaps you are suggesting that people of the Islamic Faith do not deserve Due Process because they are of the same religion as the bastards that flew planes into the twin towers?

      Are you related in some way to Joe McCarthy? Sure as hell sounds like it!

      • 3 votes
      #1.13 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:57 PM EDT
      Mongowildman

      In spite of what some may believe, the guy was NOT an American Citizen. By becoming a traitor and a leader of an enemy force, he renounced his citizenship in favor of another. He voluntarily removed himself from the ranks of the American Citizen. He was killed in conjunction with that of war and is considered an enemy casualty.

        #1.14 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:13 PM EDT
        Mike of the North

        He voluntarily removed himself from the ranks of the American Citizen.

        You have evidence that he formally renounced his citizenship? In absence of that, the allegations need to be proven through due process.

          #1.15 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:46 PM EDT
          Mongowildman

          None required. He was an outspoken and active member of an enemy force. His actions spoke volumes and the rest is implied from them. He was just another enemy casualty, regardless of where he was born.

            #1.16 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:13 PM EDT
            Mike of the North

            None required.

            So what you're telling me is you're ok with the government arbitrarily deciding who is and who isn't worthy of citizenship (or life) without presenting its evidence before the people?

            He was just another enemy casualty, regardless of where he was born.

            He wasn't killed on a battle field with an exchange of fire. He was summarily executed via remote control in country we are NOT at war with. No attempt was made to capture and he had no option of retreat or laying down arms.

            You would scream for justice if it were the other way, if Yemen had decided to take him out over here.

              #1.17 - Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:19 PM EDT
              Mongowildman

              So what you're telling me is you're ok with the government arbitrarily deciding who is and who isn't worthy of citizenship (or life) without presenting its evidence before the people?

              Nope. I let his actions speak for him. He was anti-American, therefore could not be one, lest he be anit-himself.

              The use of technology to eliminate the enemy, regardless of what they happen to be doing is fine with me. I don't care if he was in the middle of taking a dump, it is the fact that he was an enemy combatant, even if there was no combat at the time.

              You would scream for justice if it were the other way, if Yemen had decided to take him out over here.

              Why would make such an assumption? I don't care who does it, nor where, if an enemy combatant is taken out. I would be pissed if it was a foreigner dispatching him on US soil, but only for it being here. I would still be glad to see him out of the picture.

                #1.18 - Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:45 PM EDT
                Reply
                AZPADDY

                Killing an avowed enemy of this nation, intent on inflicting death and destruction any way he can, "opens a Pandora's box of nightmares"??

                It certainly does..... For terrorists who are actively waging a guerilla war on our nation. Odd how your article has absolutely no mention of the terrorist organization the now dead enemy combatant was a leader in.

                A decade later, and the terrorists are finally paying the price for the murders of over 3000 innocent people, and you have a problem with that?

                Incredible.

                • 3 votes
                #2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 12:17 PM EDT
                Chris-382117

                Do you suggest that we just get rid of the 5th amendment? It does tend to get in the way of things. Why don't we, the next time that YOU get caught speeding and the cop doesn't like the tone of your voice, just throw you in the oubliette of some old castle and just leave you there; forever. You do know that in France you can be arrested and held for a YEAR without Ever Being Charged with a Crime, don't you? Is that what you want?

                Due Process is not a protection for the criminal it is a protection for YOU. It is strictly in place to limit what the government can do to you without following what the law says. Without it, you can spit on the sidewalk and end up in the Gulag forever. I don't like that we Have to give bastards like Al-Awlaki these protections, but if we don't then none of us have any protection. As Sir Thomas More said:

                Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake, not for his!

                • 3 votes
                #2.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:40 PM EDT
                Lampell

                A decade later, and the terrorists are finally paying the price for the murders of over 3000 innocent people, and you have a problem with that?

                Incredible.

                1. If Bush did this, you would be ok with this?

                2. The prisoners of Gitmo, why dont we just shoot them and be done with it?

                  #2.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 6:10 PM EDT
                  King Dave

                  Why no mention of American born terrorist's name? But I don't think that even matters to the author, or the lives and death of Al-Awlaki victims. A poor judgement has been passed. As for me;

                  I find myself hoping that, like Zarqawi and Bin Laden, Al-Awlaki before he was blown to bits, had a few moments at the end of his despicable, serial murdering life to realize who it was who had found him and to wonder who the traitor had been. That would be something. Not much, but something.

                  • 2 votes
                  #2.3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 7:58 PM EDT
                  AZPADDY

                  Lampell

                  "If Bush did this, you would be ok with this?"

                  You're damned right I would have been OK with it. Instead, most of the nation was wondering why the hell conservatives were intent on invading Iraq, when we all knew bin Laden wasn't in Iraq!

                  I'd have been OK with it, and most Americans would have been OK with it, if GWB had done his duty, and gone after these murderous bastards instead of grandstanding with American lives in Iraq, while bin Laden and his followers laughed at us from Pakistan.

                  They're not laughing anymore, are they.

                    #2.4 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:23 PM EDT
                    Mike of the North

                    Odd how your article has absolutely no mention of the terrorist organization the now dead enemy combatant was a leader in.

                    This is of course alleged, never proven in a court. While I believe it to be true and would feel no remorse if he were put to death after conviction the principals of making the state prove its case beyond reasonable doubt is to ensure that WE the PEOPLE see the evidence against our own and that we don't simply take the governments word for it.

                    We have jury trials because WE decide who is guilty, NOT them!

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.5 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:28 PM EDT
                    King Dave

                    WE the PEOPLE see the evidence against our own and that we don't simply take the governments word for it.

                    Anyone who saw the great journalist Peter Bergen's interview with Bid Laden in 97 is most likely not a 9/11 truther. Here it is:

                    http://youtu.be/1F-GUQr4u8Q

                    Not being curious, not paying attention, or just oblivious does not make evidence non-existent or not true.

                    Whilst defending civility from religious practitioners may not seem a pressing need from the safety and comfort of a secular society such as the U.S. Religious extremist coupled with ever more destructive weaponry it is no doubt the biggest problem the world now faces. This Holy war is destined to last as long as free society is willing to defend against it.

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.6 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:42 PM EDT
                    Chris-382117

                    AZPADDY

                    "If Bush did this, you would be ok with this?"

                    You're damned right I would have been OK with it.

                    No, as the ultra-liberal whiner that you have always been you would have screamed at the top of you lungs that "Bush had violated the Constitution and should be Impeached, Arrested, Drawn Hanged and Quartered for the crime." But, because it is Obama, or a Democrat, it is acceptable; not just that, but damned near saintly .

                    You care nothing for the Constitution as long as it does not support your ideals, but you will crucify anyone that steps over the same line as you did if they are not part of our side. Liberal Hippocratic; Yes, Pot, you too are black!

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.7 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:45 PM EDT
                    BBaker-495580

                    On a strictly legal interpretation, Al-Awakli was Not a Citizen of the United States. Specifically in 8 USC 1481, amended by Pub L 99-653, it states

                    ...foreign military service would result in loss of US citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with intent to relinquish US ties -- and, additionally, only if the person served as an officer, and/or if the foreign army were engaged in hostilities against the US

                    Now, I see that as a pretty clear rationale. We're at War, he is an enemy combantant, he is casulty of war. He may never have said that he relinquished his citizenship, but he never said he was a non-combantant either. His intent is crystal clear.

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.8 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 11:21 PM EDT
                    Mike of the North

                    On a strictly legal interpretation, Al-Awakli was Not a Citizen of the United States.

                    On a strictly legal interpretation it may have been possible to have stripped him of citizen ship but no such things occurred. If it had, would you not think THAT is en entitled to due process as well or can the U.S. government summarily strip citizenship from anyone it suspects of these activities without question or redress?

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.9 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 12:56 AM EDT
                    Chris-382117

                    BBaker-495580

                    He was never tried and convicted if a violation of this federal statute , either in court or in absentia, therefor he still retains his right to the protection of the 5th Amendment. If either Bush's or Obama's administration had done so, they could have easily had a conviction that would give them the right to strip him of his citizenship. Then, he would be "none of our" and not afforded the protections of the Constitution if we so chose to not give them to him. Problem solved.

                    I do not defend him, Iam defending the system that protects both you and me from the excesses of an overzealous government. That system only works to protect us if it protects all of us. You can't pick and choose who gets the protection and who does not. We did that once some 70 years ago with Japanese Americans. We have don the same over the years with American Indians. Do you want that to be the norm and you become the one that is denied the process one day because someone in power doesn't like your attitude? What do you think would be happening to the Occupy Wall Street folks right now if Dick Chaney or Rush Lindbaugh were in charge and had the power to order Drone strikes against those they felt were wrong? That sword you swing cuts both ways.

                    It pains me to have to give this miserable bastard the protection of our laws. But if we don't, we take those protections from everyone. As Sir Thomas More said:

                    Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake, not for his!

                    • 3 votes
                    #2.10 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 9:10 AM EDT
                    Mike of the North

                    I do not defend him, Iam defending the system that protects both you and me from the excesses of an overzealous government. That system only works to protect us if it protects all of us.

                    And here is the point of the entire discussion. No one really cares about Anwar, it's the principals of the situation that a U.S. citizen have an order to kill placed upon him with no established criteria nor any public court action.

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.11 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 10:07 AM EDT
                    Another Colonel

                    ...foreign military service would result in loss of US citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with intent to relinquish US ties -- and, additionally, only if the person served as an officer, and/or if the foreign army were engaged in hostilities against the US

                    Please show us where he was stripped of his US citizenship. In the military, we describe what you are trying as quibbling....raising unrelated arguments in an attempt to obfuscate.

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.12 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 11:56 AM EDT
                    BBaker-495580

                    you can read the relevant piece of law for yourself. It is in black and white, Colonel. Outside of the military, we call it--proving one's case with factual information. It doesn't say after this or that. It's de facto loss. Was he in possesion of a valid United States Passport? There's your 64 dollar question.

                    So, How is this an unrelated argument again?

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.13 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 10:58 PM EDT
                    Another Colonel

                    BBaker...he was a United States citizen from New Mexico...and just exactly how are you judging facts again? All you have to do is agree that you are in favor of killing US citizens without due process (check your Bill of Rights one more time...yeah, it's black and white). Once you have gotten past that point...everything will become clear to you. They'll also give you one of those nifty arm bands!

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.14 - Tue Oct 4, 2011 1:28 PM EDT
                    Another Colonel

                    Since you seem to wish to quibble and then run away BBaker, I thought I would put the relevant Amendment to the US Constitution here for those who wish to discuss....it's the 5th.

                    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.15 - Wed Oct 5, 2011 2:52 PM EDT
                    BBaker-495580

                    Passport--yes or no? If I ask a third time, I'm taking that as a "no".

                    And I don't need anyone to lecture me about rights. My ancestors died and fought for those rights before this was even a country. I've got a list as long as this thread of family who have served, so take your military snobbery away from the discussion. You are in No Position to lecture me about anything.
                    8 USC 1481 is clearly constitutional, since it has been changed several times to ensure that it reflects decisions of the Supreme Court.

                    He walked away--he had a Yemeni passport. He Admitted he was an Enemy of the United States. On tape. prima facie evidence is what that is called. To sooth your concerns, let's just have a summary trial right here and now. Yep, everything looks good. Guilty. Case closed, drive home safely.

                    Nifty armband...ahhhh another Nazi reference. Too bad I'm not a Republican, I'd already have one. :)

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.16 - Thu Oct 6, 2011 11:27 PM EDT
                    Mike of the North

                    He Admitted he was an Enemy of the United States. On tape. prima facie evidence is what that is called.

                    No where in the law does it say that citizenship can be revoked without die process. If I murder someone and it's caught on tape, prima facie evidence or not, I still am entitled to due process. United States code does NOT override the constitution. The law is constitution only in so far as they FOLLOW the constitution to enforce it.

                    Also, no authority on this matter has made a claim that his citizenship was in question or that they didn't believe him to be a citizen any longer. It was purely accepted by this administration the previous that they could target and kill a citizen on foreign soil.

                      #2.17 - Thu Oct 6, 2011 11:47 PM EDT
                      BD Styers

                      Where is that tape? I haven't seen any evidence. Would like to see for myself.

                        #2.18 - Fri Oct 7, 2011 6:21 AM EDT
                        Another Colonel

                        And I don't need anyone to lecture me about rights.

                        Evidently you do need a lecture.

                        My ancestors died and fought for those rights before this was even a country. I've got a list as long as this thread of family who have served,

                        Taking credit for the actions of you forebears is indicative of one who has not served in defense of the Constitution....why not DO something for which YOU can take credit. This is a weak argument you use.

                        so take your military snobbery away from the discussion.

                        No snobbery here from me, but it appears you have a chip on your shoulder. And take it away from the discussion if it did exist? Evidently you may be one who believes rights only belong to you. How about this...we'll turn it around and see how it sets: take your civilian snobbery away from this discussion. See how silly that sounds? Work on your manners BBaker.

                        You are in No Position to lecture me about anything.

                        Evidently I am.....

                        8 USC 1481 is clearly constitutional, since it has been changed several times to ensure that it reflects decisions of the Supreme Court.

                        Oh...silly me...I was unaware that he got due process and was condemned in the court of BBaker. Step into line for your nifty arm band, the goose stepping class begins soon.

                          #2.19 - Fri Oct 7, 2011 10:37 AM EDT
                          BBaker-495580

                          once again, neither of you have even taken the time to actually read the specific law--just continue parroting your inaccuracies. Your opinions are not rooted in fact.

                          Oh yeah, he apparently was not in possesion of a valid U.S. Passport, so at least we've established that as fact.

                          I would say someone who is continually talking to down to a person with a graduate degree, and numerous professional accolades (so obviously I have my own accomplishments) in his field is being a snob. You 've served up the same lame rationale I hear alot--that someone who hasn't served is somehow inferior to you. I might need a lecture (but I'm sure I don't), but certainly not from you. You have no expertise in anything that I might need to know.

                          My manners are impeccable, except when it comes to dealing with people I happen to have no respect for. But anyway, the issue is moot. The NYT article today about the discussions behind the memorandum approving the strike makes your arguments completely specious. The entire range of legal ramifications were discussed.

                          And I'll ignore your more recent attempt at projection of Nazi values upon me. It's evident that you know Absolutely Nothing about that subject.

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.20 - Sun Oct 9, 2011 11:32 PM EDT
                          Another Colonel

                          K BBaker....you may move along now....it is clear that you don't understand the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution as you condone the murder of US Citizens (no mention of a passport there BTW). And those are the values of late 30s Germany....CYA

                            #2.21 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:07 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            willard

                            as with the bible, I think the writers of the constitution had in mind their own time reference. If the constitution becomes as rigidly interpreted as the bible, the koran etc then we end up acting exactly like the religious theocrats we so much dislike. How does one go about capturing an individual in another nation. We've seen already how much Afghanistan was helpful in locating OBL. I am far less concerned about an traitorous American who has denied his country but should even think that he'd like his rights observed (of this I doubt), than I am our government doing little to nothing to protect the rights of citizens w/in our borders where we can at the min apply law and the constitution. I am speaking of Mex-Am citizens and they're children and speak specifically of Alabama's new law.

                            Would we have violated some inalienable rights of the few American women who talked propaganda during ww2, if they'd been killed in bombing raids? (they weren't)

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 12:20 PM EDT
                            Mister Joshua

                            I think the writers of the constitution had in mind their own time reference.

                            The people who founded this country were as guilty of treason as al-Awaki. The British would have hanged them if they had lost. So I think they themselves would be terrified at the thought that in a nation of liberty anyone can be denied due process if the government deems them a threat.

                            • 7 votes
                            #3.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:20 PM EDT
                            Marshall James

                            good point mister joshua#####

                            • 4 votes
                            #3.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 6:15 PM EDT
                            BD Styers

                            willard the statement implies that free countries have indeed given in to the pressures of the religious practitioners described in King Dave's comment. Our boss has adopted the same policy as the terror boss. If you can't beat them, join them. Throw the Constitution out the window and get dirty.

                              #3.3 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 1:36 AM EDT
                              Reply
                              Fla Pat

                              This is a dangerous precedent he has set.

                              This policy was set during the previous administration and there is legal precedent for the action. If you have a concern for your rights as an American citizen then you should not forfeit them by actively attacking your country as a member of a group that has vowed to bring death and violence to it's shores.

                              2. Ex Parte Quirin (1942), where the Supreme Court upheld the detention, trial, and execution of German saboteurs, one of whom was an American citizen. The Supreme Court said: “Citizenship in the United States of an enemy belligerent does not relieve him from the consequences.” One of those consequences, of course, is being subject to attack. In World War II, many Americans returned to Germany, Italy, or Japan to fight on the side of the Axis. The courts never required some kind of due process for them.

                              http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Was-the-U.S.-s-Lethal-Attack-on-Al-Awlaki-Legal

                              The Defense Department, however, challenged the ruling, declaring that Hamdi, as an enemy combatant, did not have the Right to Counsel. The Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed and reversed the order. Nevertheless, the district court still raised doubts whether Hamdi, as a U.S. citizen, could be held as an enemy combatant. The Fourth Circuit finally settled the matter in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 316 F.3d 450 (4th Cir. 2003), when it ruled that a U.S. citizen captured with enemy forces during a combat operation in a foreign country could be held as an enemy combatant.

                              http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/enemy+combatant

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#4 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 12:38 PM EDT
                              Mister Joshua

                              This policy was set during the previous administration and there is legal precedent for the action. If you have a concern for your rights as an American citizen then you should not forfeit them by actively attacking your country as a member of a group that has vowed to bring death and violence to it's shores.

                              I used to think like you, but the more I think about the more I realize that that's a very disturbing rationalization. Think about it: anyone can be declared an enemy of the state and be eliminated now. No trial, not anything. That's far too much power for one man to have in a country with a government that was specifically designed not to have that kind of arbitrary power. The Founding Fathers were anti-government rebels. I gurantee you that if the British had the technology they would have used similar means to eliminate radicals like Sam Adams, Patrick Henry, and Thomas Paine.

                              Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist that attacked his own country and he was tried, convicted, and executed, you know, with complete due process.

                              • 5 votes
                              #4.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:16 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              Uthaclena

                              We have been at war since 2001, not primarily against a State, but against an Organization, al-Qaeda.

                              al-Awlaki, of his own free will, chose to join that organization and served as a recruiter and propaganda minister - his own media releases demonstrate this in no uncertain terms. He joined the enemy.

                              If there had been an opportunity to capture him he should indeed have faced due process. If Yemen (could have) extradited him, he should have faced due process.

                              But the primary goal of U.S. military operations against al-Qaeda is to destroy them so they cannot harm our nation again. To make the leap that this action opens the door to assassination of any American citizen with whom we disagree is, I think a stretch; if we start hunting down Tea Partiers or anti-corporate protesters in Canada or Europe, then we should be genuinely worried.

                              al-Awlaki joined the enemy and died in operations against the enemy.

                              • 4 votes
                              Reply#5 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT
                              Fla Pat

                              Not sure Yemen would have extradited him, he was wanted dead or alive there:

                              Add Yemen to the list of those hunting US-born cleric Anwar al-Awlaki: A judge today ordered cops to find him "dead or alive" after he skipped his own trial for charges of killing foreigners.

                              http://www.newser.com/story/104759/anwar-al-awlaki-wanted-dead-or-alive-in-yemen.html

                              • 3 votes
                              #5.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:08 PM EDT
                              mountainfirefall

                              no arrest, no trail, no jury, no verdict......... one person decided guilt and applied death.

                              good luck with your rational, and welcome to hell.

                              wonder where your names will appear because some one person made statement against you.

                              • 1 vote
                              #5.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 3:17 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              magnoliaave

                              You bring up an interesting point about Guatanamo which I hadn't, previously, considered. Due process of the law......yes, this man should have been captured and tried for treason. Very informative article!

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#6 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 1:38 PM EDT
                              The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                              yeagerdog

                              This is an easy one for me. We are at war and anyone that chooses to fight for the other side becomes a legitimate target.

                              If it were up to me, I peronally would have no problem squeezing off the round that enters his brain.

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#8 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 3:04 PM EDT
                              The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                              whatthetruth52

                              there are a lot of people that, given the chance, would have killed Jane Fonda at the time.

                              • 1 vote
                              #8.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:32 PM EDT
                              AZPADDY

                              You aren't seriously comparing Jane Fonda to this middle eastern terrorist, are you??

                              Wow. What a baseless argument THAT is.

                                #8.3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:33 PM EDT
                                The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                Reply
                                JimEdee

                                MIKE OF THE NORTH

                                In #5.1 he was tried...by Yemen for which he also held a citizenship...are we going to say that their laws don't matter? But more important than that, why didn't he come back for his due process? I've been told that this was more of a "police matter" than a military one, but to date, no one has said who's jurisdiction it would fall under.

                                As far as Timothy McVeigh, he was here...caught here...Anwar al-Awlaki made it a point of staying out of this country. Was McVeigh a terrorist? IMO, yes, and got what he deserved. The same as Awlaki. But I don't agree that now we ALL have to fear being label terrorist...unless of course that's what we are doing. Now, if you're outside the country, that's a whole different ball game.

                                be killed with no attempt to charge,arrest, try, or convict you of any crime nor submit any evidence to any court to obtain permission for such an order.

                                I would question, just how is this to be done? There's other Americans, fighting with Al-Quada against this country, how do we go about capturing them? How many military should we give up so these people can have their due process? In the case of Awlaki, we lost no one.

                                • 1 vote
                                Reply#9 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 4:06 PM EDT
                                I'm Ringo

                                The ONLY way to accomplish this is to charge and try President Barrack Obama, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, CIA Director David Petraeus and anyone else involved in the authorization and implementation of carrying out this attack with MURDER.

                                For it to be murder, it must be unlawful. The laws of the country where it happened say it was lawful.

                                but at the time of his death he was not engaged in combat against American forces, he was not carrying out a terrorist attack and was not an imminent threat.

                                Just like plenty of Americans that joined up with the Nazis.

                                • 2 votes
                                Reply#10 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 5:10 PM EDT
                                Mister Joshua

                                For it to be murder, it must be unlawful. The laws of the country where it happened say it was lawful.

                                "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

                                It may have been legal as far as the Yemeni government is concerned, but in the US the Constitution and Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land. The government cannot deprive a citizen of life, liberty, and property without due process of law, nor can they use a bill of attainder to declare him an outlaw since that's also expressly forbidden. What exactly al-Awaki was may be muddled, but nevertheless this does raise an important debate on what we can do to US citizens.

                                Just like plenty of Americans that joined up with the Nazis.

                                Did we summarily shoot them?

                                • 2 votes
                                #10.1 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 7:29 PM EDT
                                JimEdee

                                Mister Joshua

                                It may have been legal as far as the Yemeni government is concerned, but in the US the Constitution and Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land.

                                But the unshakable fact is, he wasn't here. Now the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are good here, but not Yemen, which is where he was. Bad deal for him being a citizen of Yemen also.

                                • 1 vote
                                #10.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 7:36 PM EDT
                                whatthetruth52

                                Mr Joshua... Maybe we should have... we wouldn't have the white supremest problem of today had we instituted "justice" at the time....

                                • 1 vote
                                #10.3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:31 PM EDT
                                Mike of the North

                                For it to be murder, it must be unlawful. The laws of the country where it happened say it was lawful.

                                Yemen didn't write the order to capture/ kill. We did. In THIS country. The U.S. CIA carried out the attacks. If I were a criminal ring leader and ordered someone overseas to kill someone outside the U.S. I guarantee you they'd try me in a U.S. court for murder. And just because Yemen is oK with targeting their own citizens with military strikes, doesn't mean we should be.

                                And whether or not anything is lawful or unlawful is decided in the courts which is where this needs to go and charging them is the way to do that. Until then the courts will likely ignore ruling on it.

                                • 1 vote
                                #10.4 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:52 PM EDT
                                Another Colonel

                                But the unshakable fact is, he wasn't here. Now the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are good here, but not Yemen, which is where he was. Bad deal for him being a citizen of Yemen also.

                                Yet we give rights to those we capture on the battlefield beyond the Geneva Convention (which they do not recognize). I find it amazing thaty many on the left defend this event....yet tremble at the thought of Gitmo and a little water.

                                • 1 vote
                                #10.5 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 9:50 PM EDT
                                JimEdee

                                Another Colonel

                                I find it amazing thaty many on the left defend this event....yet tremble at the thought of Gitmo and a little water.

                                I know, I'm just not one of them...I prefer electricity.

                                • 2 votes
                                #10.6 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 9:58 PM EDT
                                Another Colonel

                                I know, I'm just not one of them...I prefer electricity.

                                A rare one......

                                  #10.7 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
                                  I'm Ringo

                                  Yet we give rights to those we capture on the battlefield beyond the Geneva Convention (which they do not recognize).

                                  And he would have been afforded those rights if he would have been captured.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.8 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 12:48 AM EDT
                                  Mike of the North

                                  And he would have been afforded those rights if he would have been captured.

                                  Easy to say when 'capture' was apparently never on the table. Weeks of surveillance and joint intelligence efforts between Yemen and the U.S. you'd think an attempt could have been made. They even flew in and landed a chopper at Osama's compound but this guy gets remote controlled hellfire missiles.

                                    #10.9 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 1:03 AM EDT
                                    I'm Ringo

                                    Easy to say when 'capture' was apparently never on the table

                                    People are usually captured when they are either incapacitated or they surrender....the most common being surrender. I haven't seen any information that he was incapacitated (until the missile hit), nor have I ever seen any information on him trying to surrender.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.10 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 2:50 AM EDT
                                    Mike of the North

                                    People are usually captured when they are either incapacitated or they surrender....

                                    What have you got to back that up? Here we capture people all the time, often by overwhelming force. How do you think they got to Bin Laden? They didn't use a predator. Granted, no apparent attempt was made to capture there either but they certainly could have.

                                    The point is you make an attempt. If he resists then by all means, take him out but there was absolutely NO attempt to do the right thing. Its really a moot point to talk about capture though because like I said, it was never really on the table.

                                      #10.11 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 10:22 AM EDT
                                      I'm Ringo

                                      What have you got to back that up?

                                      A decent knowledge of history

                                      Here we capture people all the time, often by overwhelming force.

                                      They are captured when that overwhelming force convinces them to surrender or it is used to incapacitate them.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #10.12 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 4:52 PM EDT
                                      Mike of the North

                                      The point is that rights are useless if they are 'only if captured alive' and the government has no duty to make such attempt as in this case.

                                        #10.13 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 5:00 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        whatthetruth52

                                        I think that part of the issue is that we need to define what an American citizen is. Someone who avows hatred for all things American, who incites people to actively kill American citizens, who moves to a foreign land that just happens to house the majority of our enemies, who tried to get others to blow up plan-es by committing suicide and putting bombs in printers. I don't consider that person a citizen any longer.

                                        You are worried about this happening to you??? are you involved in terrorism?? Are you planning on blowing up any planes??? If you are then you should be worried. If not then your conspiracy theory doesn't hold water... Why would they spend the money on investigating you unless you were doing something wrong???

                                        Perhaps it is time to apply new standards to terrorists. I am pretty sure if you had someone that you knew that died on 9-11 you would have a different opinion of this situation

                                        You say that two other "not so innocent" people were killed... Being in the company of terrorist has some risk wouldn't you say??

                                        You ask the question would our founding fathers be considered terrorists. It depends on your viewpoint.. I am pretty sure if you would have asked the English aristocracy at the time the answer would have been yes. I am sure that given the chance they would have applied the same type of "justice" to our founding fathers.

                                        Please remember that history and justice are defined by the victors of a conflict not the losers.
                                        To see that in action you need look no further than the Native American. They were the losers in their conflict with the Americans who slaughtered them and took their land. To this day they are reviled as savages in our movies and folklore. Where is the justice??? Should we give back the land that we took?? Were we terrorists in their eyes???

                                          Reply#11 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:28 PM EDT
                                          The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                          Mike of the North

                                          Someone who avows hatred for all things American, who incites people to actively kill American citizens, who moves to a foreign land that just happens to house the majority of our enemies, who tried to get others to blow up plan-es by committing suicide and putting bombs in printers. I don't consider that person a citizen any longer.

                                          This is all alleged, not proven in any court and while I believe it to be true as well, the point of due process is to NOT simply take the governments accusation at their word.

                                          I don't care if your ordering to kill or stripping citizenship, due process must be followed by our government when pertaining to citizens of this country.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #11.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 8:58 PM EDT
                                          whatthetruth52

                                          Excuse me but how do you explain the video's of him saying that he wanted to kill Americans as not proof... That is the problem with the 21st century... we have all of this electronic evidence and people like you want to disprove that in a court. This person was a terrorist... and you want to let him walk...
                                          Then when he kills someone you will decry the government for not protecting them...

                                          Due process be damned when it comes to terrorists. They deserve what they get...

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #11.3 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
                                          The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                          Mike of the North

                                          and you want to let him walk...

                                          Where did you ever get the impression that I wanted to see him walk. We don't try people in the media, or on the internet. We try people in courts and jurors, CIVILIANS, decide on guilt. NOT the government.

                                            #11.5 - Mon Oct 3, 2011 1:07 AM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            lifeisgood43

                                            This terrorist stop being a American a long time ago. He deserve nothing from America but what he got.

                                              Reply#12 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 9:06 PM EDT
                                              Lampell

                                              This terrorist stop being a American a long time ago. He deserve nothing from America but what he got.

                                              Then why are we keeping people locked up in Gitmo who arent even American.? Why did the administration want to try the mastermind behind 9/11 in civilian court? Does this make sense?

                                              • 2 votes
                                              Reply#13 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 9:34 PM EDT
                                              The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                              lifeisgood43

                                              Lampell.. you people are just jealous that Pres Obama is taking out top terrorist better than any Reps/Tea Party Pres. Also he will never see Gitmo. No one was more confusing on Terrorist than Bush.

                                                #13.2 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:47 PM EDT
                                                The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                                Lampell

                                                Lampell.. you people are just jealous that Pres Obama is taking out top terrorist better than any Reps/Tea Party Pres. Also he will never see Gitmo. No one was more confusing on Terrorist than Bush.

                                                Jealous? of what, that some @!$%# got killed by a video game? and Obama pressed the button?

                                                Obama: good, Bush: bad, Afghanistan: good, Iraq: bad, torture: bad, killing: good

                                                Does that about sum it up?

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #13.4 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 10:57 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                canary-in-the-coal-mine

                                                Was he a THREAT? yes (undoubtedly)

                                                Could he have been captured? probably not (too much effort and money

                                                Was eliminating that threat in and of itself a proper action? One doesn't argue with a mad dog - one merely SHOOTS IT and buries the body

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#14 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 11:06 PM EDT
                                                Lebowsky

                                                I’ll start by saying that I appreciate everyone’s opinion and the civil way in which they were conveyed. Let me point out a few facts first, Anwar al-Awlaki’s death by US military forces at war does not set precedent. A US citizen being declared a hostile combatant does not set precedent. There are instances of this in every war and or military action since before the Revolutionary war. Instances include treason, spying, cowardice in the face of the enemy, collaborating with the enemy, and in al-Awlaki’s instance, becoming a key figure/commander of the enemy responsible for the death of US citizens.

                                                Those of you insisting that al-Awlaki deserved a trial are absolutely correct, but I would like to ask you a question since that is no longer an option. Are you going to miss the spectacle of the trial, or the years of motions, press coverage, and confinement before the trial takes place? Suppose after all that a death sentence is handed down and another 20 years of confinement and appeals is the outcome before al-Awlaki is finally executed or not. Will you miss that? I don’t think anybody will miss that part especially Anwar al-Awlaki.

                                                Here is the most important question and probably the deciding factor in why this all played out this way. Does it matter to you what Anwar al-Awlaki wanted or what he decided his fate was going to be? You do realize that the executive order was for the Capture or Death of Anwar al-Awlaki. You know the old American axiom, Wanted Dead or Alive. That didn’t come out of a fairy tale, but real life, because it has been understood that some alleged criminals were not going to come along peaceably. You’ll never take me alive copper is also the mindset of many a criminal, knowing what is in store for them, trial, captivity and sentence.

                                                Had he been willing to surrender, our military and leaders would have been proud to announce and display the animal in a cage. I will let your imaginations conceive the possible uses that may present for the war against terrorism. Saddam Hussein’s capture shouldn’t be a distant memory. His eventual hanging by his countrymen may have been in the back of al-Awlaki’s mind. According to al-Awlaki’s beliefs there were great rewards for being martyred in a jihad. Why didn’t he surrender?

                                                Let me remind you that this very scenario plays itself out almost daily in this country. The most recent of which was this news item:

                                                Fugitive Suspect in Fort Bragg Slayings Killed by Police

                                                4:00 p.m. PDT, October 1, 2011

                                                SANTA ROSA, Calif. - A man accused in two August murders near Fort Bragg has been killed, police reported Saturday.

                                                This was just local police business, but what we are talking about is war in a foreign country with the help of that country’s leaders. War is hell and never to be considered lightly, there are consequences and it involves a lot of death. Anwar al-Awlaki was at war with the US as an enemy combatant. This outcome was his choice and I can accept that.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                Reply#15 - Sun Oct 2, 2011 11:10 PM EDT
                                                The Dire DiscipleDeleted
                                                Reply
                                                DavePat

                                                After 9/11 we had two choices on how to address something that was really rather new to our way of dealing with our adversaries. We could go at it in our traditional way. Call it a war and use the military to deal with it in the same way that conventional war has been fought for centuries. That is what we did. Probably because that was something we were familiar with.

                                                It didn't take any thought or changes in our outlook. It didn't require explaining how what we are faced with now is so different from what we have had to deal with in the past. It was just easier than thinking and dealing with other countries who are faced with similar problems.

                                                What we should have done is to look at 9/11 as a criminal act committed by international criminals to be dealt with like law enforcement would deal with any other crime. The problem is that to do that, we would have been required to change our outlook on international relations.

                                                We would have been required to approach international crime as an issue to be dealt with through international courts and international law enforcement. We would have been required to change our previously demonstrated attitude regarding the UN and the International Criminal Court and make it into something rather than just ignore it as we have for so many years.

                                                We will finally have to follow this path in the future anyway, but in the interim, we will keep dealing with the issue of international terrorism through the use of the military and it will drag on and on and on with no real progress toward a solution.

                                                The military is very useful for what they do well, but to try and use the military alone to defeat terrorist, is like using a cannon to perform surgery.

                                                  #16 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:05 AM EDT
                                                  Another Colonel

                                                  And how do you find the termination of this individual regards due process Dave?

                                                    #16.1 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:10 PM EDT
                                                    DavePat

                                                    If you want to make it a "war" then he was killed on a battlefield while serving with the enemy.

                                                    If you want to drop the bogus idea that this is a "war" and call it the on going criminal enterprize that it is, then you arrest the guy and prosecute him as the criminal he appears to be.

                                                    At present, neither the Geneva Convention and the rules of war, nor the existing international criminal justice system properly addresses the situation the world faces and yet, the leaders of the world don't seem to be interested in facing that and dealing with it.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #16.2 - Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:44 PM EDT
                                                    Another Colonel

                                                    If you want to make it a "war" then he was killed on a battlefield while serving with the enemy.

                                                    I think I am the consistent one here. You would give US Constitutional rights to those of foreign descent bent on doing the nation harm...yet...in your world this man does not deserve 5th Ammentment rights if it's called a war. Interesting wriggle Dave.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #16.3 - Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:19 PM EDT
                                                    DavePat

                                                    You give "Human Rights" to people you "capture". Sort of hard to give any rights to someone you have killed. Did you not read the the part of my post about the "choice" of the two possible ways of addressing the issue?

                                                    Did you want to go with the "war" scenario which has worked soooooo well up to now? Or did you want to go with the "law enforcement" scenario? Maybe a hybrid of the two? You know, like your boy George W did. Just take the parts that fit your argument at the time? You know, the kind of thinking that justifies torture.

                                                    Maybe you just want to cry about the whole thing and offer nothing that might actually look like a solution? After all, YOU are obviously completely satisfied with the way things are going now. Except for there being a Democrat in the White House and all that sort of things.

                                                      #16.4 - Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:32 AM EDT
                                                      Another Colonel

                                                      Ah Dave....I'll move past your rhetoric and simply address this statement:

                                                      Did you want to go with the "war" scenario which has worked soooooo well up to now? Or did you want to go with the "law enforcement" scenario?

                                                      Illegal Combatants under the Geneva Convention are offered no rights under that document....those foreigners are already covered. Now, a US citizen falls under the protections of the 5th Ammendment of the US Constitution...do go back and read it. Now...quibble all you wish, those are the cfacts, they should be handled differently because they are different based on who the individual is....

                                                      This has nothing to do with who is in the WH for me and as a claimed lawyer and former law enforcement official you should know better....try again.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      #16.5 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:55 AM EDT
                                                      DavePat

                                                      If a citizen of the U.S. chooses to go to a foreign country and take up arms against the U.S. on a battlefield, then I believe that the U.S. Constitution doesn't really address that eventuality unless he were to be captured. In that event, I think he would be entitled to a trial.

                                                      Of course, we could go by the "war" scenario that you seem to want. Did the U.S. Congress pass a formal Declaration of War? I would think that would have made the papers don't you?

                                                      As I pointed out, and you so frequently avoid, the existing Rules of War and International Law, really doesn't properly address the situation we are confronted with in the world today. We had a really great opportunity to lead the world into a new era and create a workable process of dealing with terrorism. That was immediately after 9/11, but your boy squandered that opportunity and decided to go to war instead. We wasted the chance to lead the world when we had the support of the world after 9/11 and THAT was because of who was in the White House.

                                                      Now, that chance has pretty much gone because of the way we have mishandled the opportunity. We went into Iraq with no reason and, in doing so, supported the Arab world's suspicion that our war wasn't against terrorism, but was imperialistic or, worse yet, that it was against Islam. One of which was true, and the other was false, but looked enough like the truth to make it very hard to prove different.

                                                        #16.6 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:56 PM EDT
                                                        Another Colonel

                                                        Sticking with the subject Dave:

                                                        No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[1]

                                                        There is nothing there to support your assertion of:

                                                        If a citizen of the U.S. chooses to go to a foreign country and take up arms against the U.S. on a battlefield, then I believe that the U.S. Constitution doesn't really address that eventuality unless he were to be captured. In that event, I think he would be entitled to a trial.

                                                        Where's the indictment of the grand jury Dave? He was assasinated.....by your hero.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #16.7 - Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:50 AM EDT
                                                        DavePat

                                                        Your contention is that if there is a war, and a U.S. citizen is on the battlefield fighting against you, that the U.S. Constitution requires that, prior to shooting at the person, you must present evidence to a Grand Jury, receive a true bill from said Grand Jury, conduct a trial, receive a verdict, allow for appeals, prior to killing them? Interesting line of ................. thought?............ no, ................. that's not the right word............. what would be similar to "thought" without the requirement of an actual mental process?

                                                        By the way. I was staying on the subject.

                                                          #16.8 - Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:52 PM EDT
                                                          Another Colonel

                                                          My contention is he, as a citizen of the United States, was not given the due process required by the Constitution Mr Lawyer. As one who states that he is a proponent of the rule of law, you should know this to be true (makes me wonder about your "legal" education). He was not on a battlefield in direct contact with US forces. He was murdered by our government as it was expedient and would show the "toughness" of Obama. I am surprised that one who would give the rights of US citizens to those caught on the battlefield and detained at GITMO would criticize the "thought" process of others and their mental process. The end result is simple: Physician heal thyself.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #16.9 - Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:02 PM EDT
                                                          DavePat

                                                          If you would actually read what I have written, you would see that my point is that the current system for dealing with terrorism does not adequately deal with the problems presented. As such, YOUR concept of treating the entire matter as a "war" fails to address situations like Gitmo where the Bush program of "Turn in your neighbor for cash" resulted in hundreds of victims of greed, being held for years without ANY form of "due process" until they were finally released as the U.S. Supreme Court began to rule on the topic and it became obvious that your boy's "Bush Doctrine" violated every principle of human rights from the Magna Carta on.

                                                          I believe it was also YOU who claimed this was a "war" and, though you constantly avoid discussing any of the vaguries of the rules of war, like what country we are fighting and where the battle field is and how we might recognize victory and who would sign a peace treaty if peace were made and what peace would consist of and what country we declared war on and where the declaration of war was. You know, the minutia that makes any of this actually look like a real war.

                                                          However, if YOU want it to be a war, then the closest thing to an explanation of the WHY involved in the killing of this American citizen, would be that he was killed on your definition of a battle field (The Planet Earth) while serving in the enemy army.

                                                          If you don't care for that explanation, then you and I would have something to agree on for the first time in a very long time, and I would encourage you to actually seek a different means of dealing with the topic of terrorism than the one that you have apparently supported for the last decade. Might I suggest approaching the subject from a law enforcement perspective? You might read my earlier comments on the topic.

                                                          The alternative would be to continue to rant and rave for another five years in hopes of getting a white guy in the White House at that time, because it doesn't look too promising for that agenda in the immediate future.

                                                          Professor, educate thyself.

                                                            #16.10 - Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:49 AM EDT
                                                            Another Colonel

                                                            If you would actually read what I have written, you would see that my point is that the current system for dealing with terrorism does not adequately deal with the problems presented. As such, YOUR concept of treating the entire matter as a "war" fails to address situations like Gitmo where the Bush program of "Turn in your neighbor for cash" resulted in hundreds of victims of greed, being held for years without ANY form of "due process" until they were finally released as the U.S. Supreme Court began to rule on the topic and it became obvious that your boy's "Bush Doctrine" violated every principle of human rights from the Magna Carta on.

                                                            Yes Dave, you have made it abundantly clear that you will defend the GITNO detainees with the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution to US citizens....and then, further, you support the killing of the individual who is the subject of this thread (just to stay on subject) without the due process guaranteed in the US Constitution for US citizens simply because it does not fit your agenda. Hypocrisy much?

                                                            I believe it was also YOU who claimed this was a "war" and, though you constantly avoid discussing any of the vaguries of the rules of war, like what country we are fighting and where the battle field is and how we might recognize victory and who would sign a peace treaty if peace were made and what peace would consist of and what country we declared war on and where the declaration of war was. You know, the minutia that makes any of this actually look like a real war.

                                                            Yes Dave, I understand this is just one more of your many off topic rants that you use to avoid the topic of the discussion which is the killing of a US citizen who was denied his rights under the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution. Care to come back on topic and discuss the ammendment and the Constitution or do you wish to simply rant on again about subjects not germaine?

                                                            However, if YOU want it to be a war, then the closest thing to an explanation of the WHY involved in the killing of this American citizen, would be that he was killed on your definition of a battle field (The Planet Earth) while serving in the enemy army.

                                                            We knew who we were shooting at Mr Lawyer....where were his Constitutional rights re this murder?

                                                            If you don't care for that explanation, then you and I would have something to agree on for the first time in a very long time, and I would encourage you to actually seek a different means of dealing with the topic of terrorism than the one that you have apparently supported for the last decade. Might I suggest approaching the subject from a law enforcement perspective? You might read my earlier comments on the topic.

                                                            Approaching the subject is what the Clinton Administration was firmly doing...on 9/11 we learned that when seconds count, you cops are only minutes away.

                                                            The alternative would be to continue to rant and rave for another five years in hopes of getting a white guy in the White House at that time, because it doesn't look too promising for that agenda in the immediate future.

                                                            Really? You stoop to the race card? That has to be the most stupid statement I have seen addressed to me since I joined this group. Congratulations.

                                                            Professor, educate thyself.

                                                            How about you address the 5th and get back to me, you are the one who claims to have the law degree.....get cooking Mr Lawyer.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #16.11 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:38 PM EDT
                                                            Mark in Wyoming

                                                            This is all reminicant of a "Star Chamber " A select group of individuals that meet in secret , and make desicions based on their own criteria , absent any oversight controls and are answerable presumably to no one . it may work fine and dandy taking out the supposed bad guys , right up until the political dynamic of the supposed chamber changes , ( which always happens ) ant those that were for it are now the targets for the actions of said chamber , sothe question actuallyis , if your ok with such a scenario , what will you feel if you suddenly become the target for such a covert and secretive assembly , with no recourse ? Think it cant happen? better think again , because what you approve of today can be used against you in the future at the whims of those in power.

                                                            There was also amovie based on this premise, might want to check it out.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #16.12 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:55 PM EDT
                                                            Another Colonel

                                                            Exactly Mark....now if we can only get the lawyer to actually support the rule of law we may have made progress....

                                                              #16.13 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:48 PM EDT
                                                              DavePat

                                                              Corporal

                                                              It isn't off topic to make the point that YOU are the one who claims this is a war. If it is, then you have to identify the battlefield. If the battlefield is EVERYWHERE, as is apparently YOUR way of looking at it, then when you have an enemy combatant on your universal battlefield, you have two choices. Either you capture or kill said combatant.

                                                              Tell me, you claim to be retired Air Force, how many captives has an F-16 taken?

                                                              If they had captured this jerk, then I think his next stop should have been a courtroom, but then again, I explained that we should have addressed this whole matter through strengthening the International Court,............. then again, you don't want to address that do you.

                                                              YOU want to make it a war and give nobody, even prisoners, ANY human rights, except when it doesn't fit your agenda. And you accuse me of hypocrisy?

                                                              Keep up the good war Corporal. After all, as I pointed out earlier, that is going so well so far.

                                                                #16.14 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:10 PM EDT
                                                                Another Colonel

                                                                Nothing germane to the subject at hand so back on track with you:

                                                                No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury,

                                                                That's the first line Dave of the pertinent information for this thread. Where was the indictment? A grand jury could have been formed to ensure the law was respected and then we could just call it a thuggish hit. The Geneva Convention covers illegal combatants Dave and we give them more rights than warranted under that document.

                                                                I think it's clear you don't believe this American citizen deserved any rights under the US Constitution...that's okay Dave. At least you have identified those to whom you do want to give rights. Unfortunately it is not US citizens living in the system of which you are an officer of the court. Fortunately there are courts that will control your divergence from the Constitution....at least most of the time.

                                                                  #16.15 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:02 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                  .

                                                                    Reply#17 - Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:47 AM EDT
                                                                    DavePat

                                                                    Unfortunately it is not US citizens living in the system of which you are an officer of the court.

                                                                    I think that the key term here is "living". Hard to give Constitutional rights to the dead.

                                                                    We seem to be back to the "where is the battlefield" question? Or is that part of the hypocrisy issue about your vision of the "WAR" on terrorism rather than the "law enforcement" option of dealing with terrorist who commit criminal acts?

                                                                    Did I miss the part where you explained how you are so eager to give Constitutional Rights to a dead person but don't think living prisoners have any HUMAN Rights at all? That explanation must have been fascinating.

                                                                      Reply#18 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:04 AM EDT
                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                      I think that the key term here is "living". Hard to give Constitutional rights to the dead.

                                                                      He was not given his Constitutional rights as a US citizen before the Administration killed him. How does that sit with you Mr Lawyer bent on Constitutional rights for those at Gitmo?

                                                                      We seem to be back to the "where is the battlefield" question? Or is that part of the hypocrisy issue about your vision of the "WAR" on terrorism rather than the "law enforcement" option of dealing with terrorist who commit criminal acts?

                                                                      Not germane to this conversation....this is about a US citizen not getting his Constitutional rights and you are not addressing the issue. You prefer to rant on with your rhetoric.

                                                                      Did I miss the part where you explained how you are so eager to give Constitutional Rights to a dead person but don't think living prisoners have any HUMAN Rights at all? That explanation must have been fascinating.

                                                                      The "dead person" was a US citizen not afforded his Constitutional rights and you dance away from the subject. The rest of your comment means nothing to this thread Dave.

                                                                        #18.1 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:25 AM EDT
                                                                        DavePat

                                                                        I have a great deal of confidence in the abilities of the pilots of the drones, but don't you think it would be somewhat counterproductive to the whole program for the drones to be used to sky write the Miranda warnings prior to firing their missiles?

                                                                        If I recall, in another thread, you ranted on about how Clinton failed to hit bin Laden when he had his position identified and how that failure to act on actionable intelligence resulted in bin Laden being able to mastermind 9/11? Should Obama have passed on the opportunity to take out THIS enemy combatant? And please, don't go into the "American citizen" rant again, because it really is irrelevant when you know that both bin Laden and this "American citizen" were both leaders in the same terrorist organization.

                                                                        I will repeat the part that you seem to avoid. I think that if they had captured the guy, he should have gone to trial, but since he was killed, it really makes so little sense to put him on trial that I can't see even YOU advocating that a trial, would you?

                                                                          #18.2 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:11 AM EDT
                                                                          Mike of the North

                                                                          And please, don't go into the "American citizen" rant again, because it really is irrelevant...

                                                                          No, it's not "irrelevant", it's the entire point. He was a U.S. Citizen killed by his own government without the protections promised under his own country's constitution.

                                                                          His citizenship was never revoked, never officially renounced and yet select people in Washington arbitrarily decided without consent of the people by presenting evidence in a open court, that he should be executed. Not captured, EXECUTED.

                                                                          At the time of his death he was not engaged in battle with U.S. troops or allies.

                                                                          Don't ever speak against the government and decide to travel abroad, you could be next.

                                                                            #18.3 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:53 PM EDT
                                                                            DavePat

                                                                            Mike

                                                                            I feel certain that you weren't going to volunteer to go to Yemen and "capture" him were you? And I take it that you weren't advocating that we put another small group of American service men and women needlessly in danger taking this guy into custody?

                                                                            Would it have made you feel better about the whole thing if he had been collateral damage in the attempt to kill "Ibrahim Hassan al-Asiri, a Saudi bomb maker responsible for the weapon carried by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the so-called underwear bomber in the jetliner plot"? After all, Ibrahim Hassan al-Asiri also died in the same air strike. Would that have made it some how more acceptable?

                                                                            I thought I made it pretty clear that I don't think that this is the way the whole "War on Terrorism" should be handled in the first place, but it makes no sense to call it a war and fight it as a conventional war, and then cry about how an American citizen serving with the enemy army died without going to court.

                                                                              #18.4 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                              I have a great deal of confidence in the abilities of the pilots of the drones, but don't you think it would be somewhat counterproductive to the whole program for the drones to be used to sky write the Miranda warnings prior to firing their missiles?

                                                                              So, you are FOR Miranda rights for non-US citizens and AGAINST Miranda rights for US citizens....gotcha. Are you even aware of the context of the 5th Amendment Mr Lawyer? If not I would suggest you read it....if you are, then I know how you view the rights of US citizens when it benefits your political leanings.

                                                                              If I recall, in another thread, you ranted on about how Clinton failed to hit bin Laden when he had his position identified and how that failure to act on actionable intelligence resulted in bin Laden being able to mastermind 9/11?

                                                                              Not quite, but OH WOW! When did bin Laden become a US citizen....??? Is this what passes for logic Dave in some law schools? Really? If so, we need to shut them down......

                                                                              Should Obama have passed on the opportunity to take out THIS enemy combatant?

                                                                              Since it appears that you have yet to study that 5th Ammendment rascal in what passes for that law school that got you through the bar, let me help you:

                                                                              No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, , except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                                                                              Ther pertinent portion of the ammendment for you to peruse would be: unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury. Had this crimi8nal administration afforded the US citizen that right, you would have no argument from me.... He was NOT afforded his Constitutional rights Dave...the fact that you cannot grasp this issue gives me great concern for the legal community, but then agai8n, Clinton treating the problem as a legal issue was what brought us to 9/11.

                                                                              And please, don't go into the "American citizen" rant again, because it really is irrelevant when you know that both bin Laden and this "American citizen" were both leaders in the same terrorist organization.

                                                                              Really? That's the most logical argument you have? REALLY? It IS all about the citizenship of the individuals involved if you are to take into account the rule of law Dave. If you simply want to okay the murder of a US citizen, then by all means jump on the Omama bandwagon and ride off into the sunset to places that have used similar tactics in the past.

                                                                              I will repeat the part that you seem to avoid. I think that if they had captured the guy, he should have gone to trial, but since he was killed, it really makes so little sense to put him on trial that I can't see even YOU advocating that a trial, would you?

                                                                              This has to be the single most stupid statement written on this board. Go back and look above and YOU tell ME if he got his 5th Ammendment right to a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury... I sure hope you didn't pay for a law degree....

                                                                                #18.5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:00 PM EDT
                                                                                DavePat

                                                                                Corporal

                                                                                You just don't seem to grasp your own argument very well. You want to call this entire matter a "war" and the world a "battlefield". IF that is the case, then when a "soldier" of the opposing army is killed on that battlefield, it really doesn't matter whether he is a U.S. citizen taking up arms against his own country or a citizen of a country MY country is at war with, or a stateless renegade terrorist, they all die in battle the same.

                                                                                If on the other hand, they are captured and become prisoners, then they are entitled to "HUMAN RIGHTS" which include due process of law. You like to call it "Constitutional Rights" but if you would look at OUR Constitution, and the UN's Treaty on Human Rights, which we played a major role in writing, you would see that they are very similar, and yet YOU want to rant about the "Rights" of a dead, American citizen fighting against our country while you deny ANY rights to a helpless prisoner.

                                                                                How do you reconcile that again? Because it seems to me to by only hypicritcal.

                                                                                  #18.6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:43 PM EDT
                                                                                  Mike of the North

                                                                                  If on the other hand, they are captured and become prisoners, then they are entitled to "HUMAN RIGHTS" which include due process of law.

                                                                                  Those rights however don't hold any water if CAPTURE isn't an objective. There was no battle, no attempt, just an attack via remote controlled aircraft. Entitlement and rights are meaningless if one can be assassinated instead.

                                                                                    #18.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:24 AM EDT
                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                    Was every Iraqi soldier who was killed by drone attacks in the Iraq war "assassinated"?

                                                                                    Maybe it is the use of a drone that you have a problem with. Was every Iraqi soldier who was killed by an F-16 dropping a bomb of firing a missile in the Iraq war "assassinated"?

                                                                                    Maybe it was the use of an airplane. Would you rather eliminate the use of all aircraft in a war. How about we go back to fighting wars on the ground with swords.

                                                                                    You have a unique situation here. Your boy George W chose to make this a "war", but the circumstances didn't really fit neatly into the kind of "war" that we have fought for centuries. You don't have two or more belligerent countries with defined battlefields and troops representing sovereign nations and clear chains of command.

                                                                                    What you have is criminals committing crimes on a huge scale and the world wasn't and still isn't capable of dealing with this sort of thing, because there isn't a unified force to deal with it. And why is that you might ask? Because the world still deals with things as it has for centuries and there is no leadership capable of bringing world opinion around to the realization that today's threat is different than it was for the past 10,000 years or so and you can't deal with it using the tactics of Alexander and Sun Tzu and Ceasar and Napoleaon and Clauswitz. This is a different kind of threat and it isn't a threat against any single nation. It is a threat against civilization as a whole and it isn't something that can be dealt with by ONE nation or even a small group of nations, in a conventional manner.

                                                                                    But, since we don't have that level of thinking, we will continue to deal with terrorism as if we could defeat it by simply waging "war" against it and when you wage a "war", "soldiers" are killed in "battles".

                                                                                    Now if you want to fly to Yemen, and wander around the back country looking to "capture" any American citizens who might choose to fight on the other side, then I say have at it Mike. Best of luck on that.

                                                                                      #18.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:25 AM EDT
                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                      Dave,

                                                                                      Corporal

                                                                                      Such a weak attempt at a CoH violation.

                                                                                      You just don't seem to grasp your own argument very well. You want to call this entire matter a "war" and the world a "battlefield". IF that is the case, then when a "soldier" of the opposing army is killed on that battlefield, it really doesn't matter whether he is a U.S. citizen taking up arms against his own country or a citizen of a country MY country is at war with, or a stateless renegade terrorist, they all die in battle the same.

                                                                                      You don't seem to grasp the rights of US citizens....the rights of US citizens are sacred to those of us who really defend them at the risk of our lives rather than the chair polishers in the legal profession. This individual was denied his Constitutional rights and that does not bother you. We get it Dave. United States Constitutional rights are reserved for foreigners already covered in the Geneva Convention and according to you, US citizens killed for your political amusement are not to be the recipients of their rights because YOU have decided so.... Very sad that you feel that way....especially given your claimed profession.

                                                                                      If on the other hand, they are captured and become prisoners, then they are entitled to "HUMAN RIGHTS" which include due process of law. You like to call it "Constitutional Rights" but if you would look at OUR Constitution, and the UN's Treaty on Human Rights, which we played a major role in writing, you would see that they are very similar, and yet YOU want to rant about the "Rights" of a dead, American citizen fighting against our country while you deny ANY rights to a helpless prisoner.

                                                                                      They currently get more rights than they deserve under the Geneva Convention...you have yet to read the document have you.

                                                                                      How do you reconcile that again? Because it seems to me to by only hypicritcal.

                                                                                      I reconcile the distinction based on who is who and how they are covered in both the Constitution for US citizens and the Geneval Convention for illegal combatants who are foreigners. Evidently your political hipocrisy does not allow you to use the logic required to follow that distinction....once again, very sad for you.

                                                                                        #18.9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:21 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        Mongowildman

                                                                                        His citizenship was never revoked, never officially renounced

                                                                                        His citizenship was renounced by virtue of his actions.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #19 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
                                                                                        Another Colonel

                                                                                        His citizenship was renounced by virtue of his actions.

                                                                                        While I understand your sentiment, we both know this is not how it works....

                                                                                          #19.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:18 PM EDT
                                                                                          Mongowildman

                                                                                          Yeah, I know. But in my book, actions speak louder than words. As far as I am concerned, he was a traitor and by that definition, the penalty is death. it just happened to be without trial or the expense and trouble of the appeals process where a slick lawyer might argue that he had a bad childhood and the US is to blame. No, Swift and harsh justice was served.

                                                                                            #19.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:38 PM EDT
                                                                                            Mike of the North

                                                                                            As far as I am concerned, he was a traitor and by that definition, the penalty is death.

                                                                                            Treason is defined in the constitution as is revocation of citizenship, YOUR book means nothing nor should it. This is discussion of the rule of law.

                                                                                            No, Swift and harsh justice was served.

                                                                                            Justice is never served when a man cannot defend himself and a government has no liability to produce evidence.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #19.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:28 AM EDT
                                                                                            DavePat

                                                                                            Justice is never served when a man cannot defend himself and a government has no liability to produce evidence.

                                                                                            I agree with you Mike. So you are saying that terrorism should not be dealt with using the "war" game plan? I commend your very clear thinking.

                                                                                              #19.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:28 AM EDT
                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                              Dave,

                                                                                              The distinction is the 5th Ammendment and how it applies to US citizens....there was no revocation of citizenship....just a missile attack. If it can happen to this citizen, it can happen, given your logic, to any US citizen given the regime in charge.

                                                                                              I guess some law degrees can still be obtained on match book covers......given your "informed" approach.

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #19.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
                                                                                              DavePat

                                                                                              Maybe you would like to join Mike in the pursuit of these "American citizens" in the back country of Yemen. Do let us know when we can pick up the prisoners you collect, won't you. After all, Yemen is allied with our country so I'm sure you will find the entire country bending over backwards in their efforts to support you in your quest for truth justice and the American way. Look to the government of Yemen for their assistance. I'm sure they will be as helpful as the Pakistani government was in their efforts to help us find bin Laden.

                                                                                              Oh wait. If you caught them, you would send them to a black site and "question" them to death wouldn't you? Who knows, maybe you two could answer that question left unanswered by the Bush boys. Just how long can a man hold his breath?

                                                                                                #19.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:22 PM EDT
                                                                                                Mike of the North

                                                                                                So you are saying that terrorism should not be dealt with using the "war" game plan?

                                                                                                I don't think it's as simple as that. On one hand you have Afghanistan, a country unwilling to assist the U.S. with Al Quaida, the only way to find them WAS war. On the other hand, we had Yemen's assistance in locating this guy and apparently authorized use of air space. He was NOT an actively engaged military target.

                                                                                                We landed the USMC in Osama Bin Ladin's back yard and you're telling me we couldn't have captured this guy in a car?

                                                                                                  #19.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                  Dave,

                                                                                                  Maybe you would like to join Mike in the pursuit of these "American citizens" in the back country of Yemen.

                                                                                                  Been there, done that.

                                                                                                  Do let us know when we can pick up the prisoners you collect, won't you. After all, Yemen is allied with our country so I'm sure you will find the entire country bending over backwards in their efforts to support you in your quest for truth justice and the American way.

                                                                                                  Given that, for your political agenda, you are not in favor of the rights of US citizens, I would wonder what you really know about truth, justice, and the American way.

                                                                                                  Look to the government of Yemen for their assistance. I'm sure they will be as helpful as the Pakistani government was in their efforts to help us find bin Laden.

                                                                                                  All this administration had to do was adhere to the 5th Amendment to the Constitution and secured a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury. This administration rather chose the murder of a US citizen without due process and you, a self-professed lawyer agree with that approach. We get it Dave. Rights are for those YOU choose to have rights....illegal foreign combatants.

                                                                                                  Oh wait. If you caught them, you would send them to a black site and "question" them to death wouldn't you?

                                                                                                  And you would coddle them when their rights are not put forth in accordance to the Geneva Convention and allow them to hide their plans to kill innocents. We get that too....they used to call those who thought like you enemy sympathizers and given your views on Constitutional rights that would make you a target....see where your beliefs take you?

                                                                                                  Who knows, maybe you two could answer that question left unanswered by the Bush boys. Just how long can a man hold his breath?

                                                                                                  Since some in the military are trained in this, the answer is simple "a long time"....but not as long as your ill-advised pontificating.

                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                  #19.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:58 PM EDT
                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                  I don't think it's as simple as that. On one hand you have Afghanistan, a country unwilling to assist the U.S. with Al Quaida, the only way to find them WAS war. On the other hand, we had Yemen's assistance in locating this guy and apparently authorized use of air space. He was NOT an actively engaged military target.

                                                                                                  Superb points Mike.....

                                                                                                    #19.9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:59 PM EDT
                                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                                    That is about as close as I have seen to you actually admitting that you support the waterboarding of a helpless prisoner there Corporal.

                                                                                                    When I first became involved in a discussion that you were involved in, I actually thought that you displayed a sense of honor. It was long enough ago that I don't recall what the topic was, but then again, it appears that I was wrong about that. You fooled me then, but I now see your true colors. What a disappointment.

                                                                                                    I think that may have something to do with why I now have some doubts that you are actually a retired military officer. Maybe I am still fooling myself, but I just don't like to think that someone in a leadership position in a profession as honorable as the U.S. military, would support such a cowardly and dishonorable thing as the torture of a helpless prisoner. That is probably the source of my disappointment but maybe, if you were actually an Air Force officer, you are the exception rather than the rule. We can only hope.

                                                                                                      #19.10 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                                      Aw Dave, I'm hurt. /s

                                                                                                      Yeah...I guess I'm only honorable when I am agreeing with you. If memory serves, I was protecting you in the beginning...maybe that's what you have forgotten. That was back before I found out you served in Iraq for the money as a contractor, rather than believing in what you were doing.

                                                                                                      You have yet to address the 5th Amendment rights of the individual in question. How, in your view of the legal community you profess to belong, do you rationalize the lack of adherence to presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury. This is what should have been accomplished by this administration Dave and I suspect that, deep down, you know that fact but lack the integrity to admit your King can do anything as despicable as murdering a US citizen. Are rights only allowed for those who live your version of the political spectrum? Give us the benefit of that law degree you claim to have.

                                                                                                      Waterboarding...hmmm. You address the 5th and I'll let you know what I think about waterboarding. I doubt you'll follow through on that and will continue to dance and deflect...it is what lawyers are good at anyway.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #19.11 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                      DavePat

                                                                                                      Tell you what. I have addressed the 5th Amendment issue. I pointed out that had the guy been captured, he should have been taken to court. Of course then you have to deal with extradition, since you do recall that he was NOT in the U.S.? At an extradition hearing, the U.S. would have been required to present evidence to support the case against the suspect and if the suspect had been arrested in a country that does not support capital punishment, been assured that the suspect would not be subject to capital punishment if returned to face trial in the U.S.

                                                                                                      Of course, none of that was required since the suspect was killed on a foreign battlefield, wasn't he? Didn't YOU say this was a war and the battlefield is the world?

                                                                                                      Now, about your position on the torture of helpless prisoners? Or were you going to use that Bush dodge about how waterboarding isn't really torture?

                                                                                                        #19.12 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:16 PM EDT
                                                                                                        Mike of the North

                                                                                                        I pointed out that had the guy been captured, he should have been taken to court.

                                                                                                        As opposed to captured and and executed on the spot? What difference does it make when capture isn't even attempted? You say the U.S. would have to provide evidence for extradition... do you think Yemen allowed a predator drone air strike without evidence but would balk at extradition? This whole post makes no sense.

                                                                                                        Of course, none of that was required since the suspect was killed on a foreign battlefield

                                                                                                        What battles is the US engaged in in Yemen? I don't buy the whole 'war without borders' bull$#!T in the war on terror. We're still dealing with countries and governments, some cooperate and some don't. With the support of a foreign government you can use police tactics where as an unsupportive government would require more of a military approach. All reports suggest Yemen was cooperating in locating and allowing the air strike, so why would capture not be?

                                                                                                        Had it actually been a battlefield or killed during a resistance to captureI would not be opposed but that was NOT the case.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #19.13 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:43 AM EDT
                                                                                                        DavePat

                                                                                                        Mike

                                                                                                        I don't support the whole "war" concept for fighting terrorist either, but that seems to be the course taken by the administration after 9/11. One of the many problems with the "war" scenario is that you aren't dealing with sovereign nations fighting each other, but are dealing with stateless individuals, a lot of which are making use of the weaker governments who, like Yemen, Pakistan Somalia and many others, are unable to exercise any control over parts of their own countries even if they were to choose to try.

                                                                                                        The approach you suggest with an "unsupportive government" is how we got into Afghanistan. The Afghan government, (Taliban) was chastised and we ended up with the Tar Baby we have now. With that one, we at least had the benefit of being justified in our actions.

                                                                                                        Then you have Iraq. An example of what happens when you attempt to follow the same course of action as you would with the "unsupportive government" attempting to harbor terrorists, when there were no terrorists to begin with. Same Tar Baby problem as with Afghanistan, but without the benefit of an actual justification for our actions.

                                                                                                        Then we have the example of Pakistan and Yemen. In these two countries we have the "support" of the government, that can't or won't deal with the terrorists in their country and still try and maintain their sovereignty while they allow the use of U.S. drones with a wink and nod while loudly rattling sabers for the purpose of showing a strong defense of their sovereignty for the consumption of their own population.

                                                                                                        Which brings us to the issue of attempting to capture a terrorist in one of these countries that is about half a step from qualifiying as a failed state. We pulled it off when the SEALS went into Pakistan to capture bin Laden, but it isn't one of those things that you would want to try very often if you value the lives of our troops and don't want to waste those lives when you don't have to.

                                                                                                        The bin Laden raid served the purpose of making absolutely certain that the highest value target in the last ten years was eliminated. Something that required not only boots on the ground, but extracting the body to be certain they got him. This clown in Yemen didn't raise to the level of bin Laden.

                                                                                                          #19.14 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                          Mike of the North

                                                                                                          We pulled it off when the SEALS went into Pakistan to capture bin Laden, but it isn't one of those things that you would want to try very often if you value the lives of our troops and don't want to waste those lives when you don't have to

                                                                                                          Sorry, I'm not buying it. You don't forgo the constitution and the principals it stands for simply as a matter of convenience. I mourn every service member lost including those in my own family but you don't execute a US citizen because the 'risk isn't worth it' to do it the right way.

                                                                                                          I do however want to thank you and everyone else for a cordial argument that, for the most part was COH friendly. We're probably not going to agree on anything here except that hopefully no president again will ever be forced to decide whether to capture or kill a US citizen again.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #19.15 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                          Another Colonel

                                                                                                          No Dave...you have not addressed the critical portion of the 5th that I have been pointing out for what seems like forever trying to get you, who claim to be a lawyer, to explain why it appears the individual did not get the benefit of his rights. That portion of the 5th is:

                                                                                                          No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury.....

                                                                                                          Extradition is not the question until the first step is accomplished. Your attempt at addressing extradition is little more than an attempt to deflect from the central issue....did he get his Constitutional rights as a US citizen. The answer is clearly no as he was not the beneficiary of an indictment by a Grand Jury....care to explain this critical issue or are you simply going to deflect forever?

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #19.16 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                          DavePat

                                                                                                          I don't know how to break it to you Corporal, but there are people arrested on a daily basis that are not indicted by a Grand Jury and some of them are even killed in the process of such an arrest.

                                                                                                          Could they have gone to a Grand Jury and gotten an indictment? Yes, they probably could have, but had they done that, what difference would it have made since he was not arrested? There was no one on the ground to take him into custody. Tell me Corporal. If there was an indictment and a warrant issued and the Yemeni government had agreed to extradite the suspect, would YOU have gone to the back country in Yemen and arrested the guy?

                                                                                                          Didn't think so.

                                                                                                          Another thing. IF you had, what authority would you have made the arrest under?

                                                                                                          Are we ever going to hear from you on the torture issue?

                                                                                                          Didn't think so.

                                                                                                            #19.17 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                            So you simply dodge the indictment of a Grand Jury...gotcha Dave...evidently Constitutional rights are reserved for non-US citizens with you.....very sad illumination on your stated profession. He was not arrested Dave because he was murdered by our government without the benefit of his Constitutional rights and we have here, a self professed lawyer that is absolutely okay with that as it helps his hero in the White House look tough. Very sad.

                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                            #19.18 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:35 PM EDT
                                                                                                            DavePat

                                                                                                            Would you have served a warrant issued by such a Grand Jury? Didn't think so, but that is ok, because you wouldn't have had the authority to execute such a warrant anyway, but NONE of that matters to you does it Corporal. Easier to just continue to sing the same pointless song and I noticed that you still skipped the torture question.

                                                                                                            As good as your word I see. Sad.

                                                                                                              #19.19 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:43 PM EDT
                                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                                              Did he, or did he not get the benefit of indictment under a grand jury Dave? If he did, please present the information from a credible source....if not, it was murder by our government. The fact that you profess to be a lawyer but fail to understand the 5th Amendment is the sad part of our exchange. (I honestly think you do understand the amendment, but it does not fit your political agenda and that's why you are doing the Texas side step on this issue)...hipocrisy Dave...look it up.

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              #19.20 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 11:58 AM EDT
                                                                                                              DavePat

                                                                                                              As I have said over and over and over, IF the guy had been captured, THEN he could have been taken before a magistrate, held, indicted and tried. Of course, there would have been that problem with the fact that he was outside of the U.S. and there would have been all that pesky extradition and the fact that a warrant from a U.S. court would have no authority in Yemen and any number of other issues, but that means nothing to you does it Corporal because none of that fits into your "political agenda" does it.

                                                                                                              By the way. Are you continuing to duck the torture question, by diverting to something that has already been asked and answered repeatedly? Thought so. Can't bring yourself to deny your support for torture, even though you know it is unethical, dishonorable and cowardly so you just duck the question. Which, is still cowardly.

                                                                                                                #19.21 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
                                                                                                                Another Colonel

                                                                                                                As I have said over and over and over, IF the guy had been captured, THEN he could have been taken before a magistrate, held, indicted and tried.

                                                                                                                No Dave, they can get the indictment before they kill him and you should know that.

                                                                                                                No ducking going on here at all Dave, I just want you to actually answer the question honestly and then we'll deal with your issues.

                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                #19.22 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 4:53 PM EDT
                                                                                                                DavePat

                                                                                                                I said that they could have gotten an indictment prior to taking any action (see #19.17), but we still have the same issues that I have mentioned time and time again. It would have been pointless to do that since he was in another country and we could not serve a warrant on him or anything else.

                                                                                                                We could have sued him as well, but wouldn't that have been equally pointless?

                                                                                                                Still ducking the torture issue are you?

                                                                                                                  #19.23 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 5:34 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  Mike of the North

                                                                                                                  It would have been pointless to do that since he was in another country and we could not serve a warrant on him or anything else.

                                                                                                                  We secured authorization for an air strike, why not to make an arrest. Yemen, also has made arrests for people wanted in the U.S., namely in connection for attacks on the U.S.S. Cole. You say he would have gotten due process IF he were captured but that point is moot since there was no attempt to do so. If you were suspected of murder I doubt you'd find comfort in the fact that YOU'D get due process after police shot you on sight...

                                                                                                                  It's not so much that he was killed, it's that ity was done by administrative decision. He was denied all possibility of due process. He was never charged with any crime, much less convicted, not ever had his citizenship officially stripped. his father was denied a day in court saying that he had no legal standing. When a government arbitrarily decides to kill one of it's own citizens, EVERY CITIZEN has LEGAL STANDING.

                                                                                                                  The problem lies in that there is no official protocal, no proceedure to make such a decision. If allowed to stand, any one of us could theroetically end up on that list with no recourse.

                                                                                                                    #19.24 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 10:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                                                    Sorry Mike, did I miss your post where you volunteered to go to the back country of Yemen, or Pakistan for that matter, and start arresting people? I think there may still be some out there, but I can't see dispatching any ground troops to do that just for some guy like this.

                                                                                                                    If you want to make the pursuit of terrorist an international law enforcement program then I support your plan since I agree that these clowns are criminals, but to do that you are going to need to get the rest of the world on board. We had our best shot at that just after 9/11 but Bush decided to follow the "war" scenario instead and then pretty much eliminated the chances of world cooperation when he used the excuse to invade Iraq, but who knows, maybe in another generation or so, people may have forgotten what a stupid move that was and give us a chance to lead the world in a campaign against criminal terrorist instead of just fighting an early 21st century problem with early 20th century tactics and strategy.

                                                                                                                      #19.25 - Thu Nov 3, 2011 9:25 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                                                      I said that they could have gotten an indictment prior to taking any action (see #19.17), but we still have the same issues that I have mentioned time and time again. It would have been pointless to do that since he was in another country and we could not serve a warrant on him or anything else.

                                                                                                                      Yet the administration did not secure an indictment. Is it your contention that we only offer US Constitutional rights to US citizens when it is convenienbt? Looks like it to me. I dodge nothing...you have yet to explain the inConstitutional aspect of those you support.

                                                                                                                        #19.26 - Sat Nov 5, 2011 10:00 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        Another Colonel

                                                                                                                        Sorry Mike, did I miss your post where you volunteered to go to the back country of Yemen, or Pakistan for that matter, and start arresting people?

                                                                                                                        Pretty stupid question......

                                                                                                                          #19.27 - Sun Nov 6, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
                                                                                                                          DavePat

                                                                                                                          Two things

                                                                                                                          1. I dodged nothing. I pointed out that the administration could have sought an indictment but that there was no need for such an indictment if there was no prisoner and that to take such a prisoner in another country would require the cooperation of the local authority IF they had any chance of actually dealing with such an arrest, or to send someone to make such an arrest. Even if they did send someone, that person would have no authority to serve a warrant in Yemen anyway which makes the question rather moote anyway.

                                                                                                                          2. It isn't a "stupid question" at all. I would think that YOU as a professed military man, wouldn't be all that big on putting our troops in harms way unnecessarily as Mike seems to be willing to, unless he was volunteering to do it himself. Then again, maybe you were one of those commanders who really didn't care that much about the little guy on the ground. I understand there are those, but I have never been one support that idea. Just can't get my mind around it. You must explain that to me one day. Maybe it would be part of that same philosophy that allows someone to torture helpless prisoners and still think of himself as a person of honor. Is that it? I noticed you are still ducking that question.

                                                                                                                            #19.28 - Mon Nov 7, 2011 5:11 PM EST
                                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                                            Dave,

                                                                                                                            1. I dodged nothing. I pointed out that the administration could have sought an indictment but that there was no need for such an indictment if there was no prisoner and that to take such a prisoner in another country would require the cooperation of the local authority IF they had any chance of actually dealing with such an arrest, or to send someone to make such an arrest. Even if they did send someone, that person would have no authority to serve a warrant in Yemen anyway which makes the question rather moote anyway.

                                                                                                                            Could have, but did not seek an indictment by a Grad Jury as it was inconvienent. Your dodge is that the indictment was not convenient, therefore convenience is what drives your view of the 5th Ammendment....let's hope you are not called on to defend anyone in court any time soon.

                                                                                                                            2. It isn't a "stupid question" at all. I would think that YOU as a professed military man, wouldn't be all that big on putting our troops in harms way unnecessarily as Mike seems to be willing to, unless he was volunteering to do it himself. Then again, maybe you were one of those commanders who really didn't care that much about the little guy on the ground. I understand there are those, but I have never been one support that idea. Just can't get my mind around it. You must explain that to me one day. Maybe it would be part of that same philosophy that allows someone to torture helpless prisoners and still think of himself as a person of honor. Is that it? I noticed you are still ducking that question.

                                                                                                                            We are here to do our J-O-B and the crux of that J-O-B is the United States Constitution and the defense of the document against all enemies foreign and domestic. Since you seem to find the US Constitution as a document of convenience, guess which category that puts you. We put ourselves on the line to defend those individuals worthy of that defense based on their citizenship to this nation daily Dave...even those who evidently do not deserve that defense. Never lost a troop under my coverage....that was based on great planning and saveage attack of those who would do them harm. Maybe THAT will sink in with you. As far as your accusation of dodge...you have yet to answer why ypou think the Constitution is a document of convenience yet....do try again without the quibbling.

                                                                                                                              #19.29 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 12:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                              DavePat

                                                                                                                              I did not say that seeking an indictment was "inconvenient", you did.

                                                                                                                              The point I made was that it was pointless, since only a moron would put American soldiers in harms way for THIS GUY, when there was another means of accomplishing the same thing without putting an American soldiers in jeopardy.

                                                                                                                              TheU.S. Constitution was not in jeopardy over this. If you want to see the U.S. Constitution in jeopardy, look back at the Patriot Act, and the violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and that torture thing that you keep ducking, or is that part of the Constitution and the question of honor in general simply "inconvenient" in your mind?

                                                                                                                                #19.30 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 1:44 PM EST
                                                                                                                                Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                I did not say that seeking an indictment was "inconvenient", you did.

                                                                                                                                Evidently you are incapable of comprehending the meaning behind your thoughts....inconvienence is what troubles you with the rights of others under the Constitution.

                                                                                                                                The point I made was that it was pointless,

                                                                                                                                Because it was inconvienient.

                                                                                                                                since only a moron would put American soldiers in harms way for THIS GUY,

                                                                                                                                Especially since they do not wish to recognize the rights of a citizen under the Constitution. Our J-O-B is to go into harms way under Constitutional authority...eveidently you cannot comprehend this fact. Now...who's the moron again?

                                                                                                                                when there was another means of accomplishing the same thing without putting an American soldiers in jeopardy.

                                                                                                                                Like a convenient MURDER of a citizen.

                                                                                                                                TheU.S. Constitution was not in jeopardy over this. If you want to see the U.S. Constitution in jeopardy, look back at the Patriot Act, and the violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and that torture thing that you keep ducking, or is that part of the Constitution and the question of honor in general simply "inconvenient" in your mind?

                                                                                                                                Once you are able to comprehend the Constitution Dave...we can move on to your derails that you use in an attempt to duck the issue.

                                                                                                                                  #19.31 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 3:00 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  DavePat

                                                                                                                                  It is apparent that YOU don't have a clue as to what was written. Had the evidence of this clowns guilt been submitted to a Grand Jury and a true bill been issued by said Grand Jury, and the guy had been killed by the drone, would that have made any difference? Of course not. No matter how "convenient" such an indictment might or might not have been, it would have still been "pointless".

                                                                                                                                  Had some military leader decided that trying to put American boots on the ground in Yemen with an indictment and a warrant in hand, (Because said military leader decided that it was their J-O-B and he/she didn't really care about the troops he was putting in harm's way) then the indictment and the warrant would STILL have been "POINTLESS" because it would have been legally unenforceable. Of course you could show a copy of that "pointless" indictment and warrant to the widows of any soldiers who lost their lives in the attempt at vanity by the military leader who ordered that pointless mission, but some how, I sort of think that they would rather have their spouse back alive and well.

                                                                                                                                  Still ducking Corporal? Sure looks like it to me.

                                                                                                                                    #19.32 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 5:56 PM EST
                                                                                                                                    Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                    No matter how "convenient" such an indictment might or might not have been, it would have still been "pointless".

                                                                                                                                    Due process is "pointless"? Forget whether or not he should have been captured, dead or alive I could really care less. Here's my question to you Dave, do you think that a President should be able to order a kill on a U.S. citizen anywhere in the world with out ANY public court hearing? Do you think there should or shouldn't be SOME established protocol involving some sort of public finding of guilt BEFORE an order to kill can be carried out?

                                                                                                                                    NONE of these happened. There's nothing to say that you or I or anyone else couldn't end up on the kill list because the administration has no burden to prove and no established protocol governing who ends up on that list and how.

                                                                                                                                    Say what you will about willingness to serve, you don't know me, what I do or what I have done. It IS an ignorant question. If this guy was enough of a threat to our country to warrant killing him, I have many friends and family members wearing our nations flag on their shoulders who have taken an oath to DEFEND the constitution and would have gone to take him in.

                                                                                                                                      #19.33 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 10:07 PM EST
                                                                                                                                      DavePat

                                                                                                                                      Due process is "pointless"? Forget whether or not he should have been captured, dead or alive I could really care less. Here's my question to you Dave, do you think that a President should be able to order a kill on a U.S. citizen anywhere in the world with out ANY public court hearing?

                                                                                                                                      Number one. You can't simply "Forget whether or not he should have been captured." That is the point of the issue. If you are going to attempt to capture the guy, then there are legal procedures that you deal with, but the decision as to whether or not terrorism is going to be treated as part of a "war" or as a law enforcement issue. The decision was that terrorism is a "war".

                                                                                                                                      When that decision was made, then the rules changed. On a different scale, but similar to the Civil War. When John Brown was captured, he was tried and convicted and sentenced to death. When your great great grandfather was shot and killed at the Bull Run, he wasn't tried and he hadn't been indicted and his buddies that were captured, weren't tried either. They were involved in a war against their country.

                                                                                                                                      This guy was in another country, where even that countries central government doesn't have control of the whole of their own nation, and he was part of an "Army" that is at "War" with our country. In that capacity, and under the "war" scenario, it would have been pointless to seek an indictment.

                                                                                                                                      Do you think there should or shouldn't be SOME established protocol involving some sort of public finding of guilt BEFORE an order to kill can be carried out?

                                                                                                                                      Yes. I think that there should be SOME established protocol. In fact, I think that the entire issue of worldwide terrorism should not have been dealt with as a "war" in the first place. In addition, I think that, and I have stated it here as well, that we may well have missed the best opportunity to deal with terrorism as a world wide law enforcement issue when George W and company went off on their little adventure into Iraq.

                                                                                                                                      Prior to that, we had world wide support that we could have used to change the way the entire question of stateless individuals engaged in worldwide terrorism, could have been dealt with. That was even after our fully justified strike against Afghanistan, but when we entered Iraq, we blew that support and probably lost the respect, sympathy and support of the world for the next generation. Possibly the next two generations.

                                                                                                                                        #19.34 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:51 AM EST
                                                                                                                                        rareety

                                                                                                                                        DavePat,

                                                                                                                                        Number one. You can't simply "Forget whether or not he should have been captured." That is the point of the issue. If you are going to attempt to capture the guy, then there are legal procedures that you deal with, but the decision as to whether or not terrorism is going to be treated as part of a "war" or as a law enforcement issue. The decision was that terrorism is a "war".

                                                                                                                                        Well, according to your logic, we can just shoot these guys who plan or attempt to execute a domestic terror attack, instead of trying to capture them. No due process required, right? Can't have it both ways.

                                                                                                                                        Actually, I like that idea. Except for the intelligence loss, it is a great way to deal with them and save the Taxpayers a lot of money.

                                                                                                                                          #19.35 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:15 PM EST
                                                                                                                                          Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                          Wow...and you're a lawyer?

                                                                                                                                          It is apparent that YOU don't have a clue as to what was written. Had the evidence of this clowns guilt been submitted to a Grand Jury and a true bill been issued by said Grand Jury, and the guy had been killed by the drone, would that have made any difference?

                                                                                                                                          Had the evidence been submitted to a Grand Jury and had an indictment been issued...we would not have a problem. The reason we have a problem is YOU have no clue on the 5th Amendment and would kill without due process....and you then want to discuss torture? You really need to get consistent because your posts make no sense when the Rule of Law is taken into account.

                                                                                                                                          Of course not. No matter how "convenient" such an indictment might or might not have been, it would have still been "pointless".

                                                                                                                                          And this is where you get the convenience charge from me....it was convienent to kill rather than offer due process to a United States citizen....sad commentary on your profession.

                                                                                                                                          Had some military leader decided that trying to put American boots on the ground in Yemen with an indictment and a warrant in hand, (Because said military leader decided that it was their J-O-B and he/she didn't really care about the troops he was putting in harm's way) then the indictment and the warrant would STILL have been "POINTLESS" because it would have been legally unenforceable.

                                                                                                                                          An incredibly ignorant comment Dave.

                                                                                                                                          Of course you could show a copy of that "pointless" indictment and warrant to the widows of any soldiers who lost their lives in the attempt at vanity by the military leader who ordered that pointless mission, but some how, I sort of think that they would rather have their spouse back alive and well.

                                                                                                                                          I don't expect you to know what we are about as you simply have not lived in our world. We do the work that others, lesser people in the case of some lawyers, are incapable of accomplishing.

                                                                                                                                          Still ducking Corporal? Sure looks like it to me.

                                                                                                                                          You have yet to justify the murder of a US citizen by your government to me...try that 5th Amendment again and do try to read it at the comprehension level. Were you out with the mumps when they taught that one? Sure looks like it to me.

                                                                                                                                            #19.36 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:53 PM EST
                                                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                            Do you think there should or shouldn't be SOME established protocol involving some sort of public finding of guilt BEFORE an order to kill can be carried out?

                                                                                                                                            "Yes. I think that there should be SOME established protocol."

                                                                                                                                            There is...the 5th...unless it is inconvienient to a world leader trying to look tough in front of a portion of the American people....

                                                                                                                                              #19.37 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:56 PM EST
                                                                                                                                              DavePat

                                                                                                                                              Had the evidence been submitted to a Grand Jury and had an indictment been issued...we would not have a problem.

                                                                                                                                              Yes you would have a problem. Two problems in fact. The first was that there would still have been no trial. The second "problem" your boys in the GOP would have with ANYTHING that came out of this White House was that there is a black guy in the Oval Office. Of course that isn't one you will talk about much is it?

                                                                                                                                              You want to talk about the Constitution? Have you read the 4th Amendment?

                                                                                                                                              Amendment 4
                                                                                                                                              The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
                                                                                                                                              effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and
                                                                                                                                              no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
                                                                                                                                              affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
                                                                                                                                              persons or things to be seized.

                                                                                                                                              By the language in the 4th, it would appear that the only acceptable arrest under the Constitution would be with a warrant, but that isn't the case is it? Is that because THAT provision of the Constitution is "inconvenient" or is it because it isn't practical and the Courts have created exceptions to that provision?

                                                                                                                                              Now, I'm not familiar with a case where the Courts have ruled on the question of whether or not you can shoot an American citizen who is fighting against his country in a war, on a foreign battlefield, but I would be open to reading about it, if you have found one Corporal. Have you got one?

                                                                                                                                              Then there was this issue.

                                                                                                                                              I don't expect you to know what we are about as you simply have not lived in our world. We do the work that others, lesser people in the case of some lawyers, are incapable of accomplishing.

                                                                                                                                              You do realize that you are making my point with this statement don't you? You are claiming that lawyers can't do "the work that others, lesser people in the case of some lawyers, are incapable of accomplishing" so you are going to cry about how this poor "American citizen" wasn't afforded his rights, while claiming that YOU, or should we say those who actually do their fighting from the ground, (you were Air Force aren't you?), do the "work that others,....... are incapable of accomplishing". Would that be like ordering someone to fire a missile rather than ordering someone to drop into a hostile country and execute a warrant ................ oh wait,.......... we already established that such a warrant wouldn't be enforceable in Yemen didn't we............. Oh, maybe they would be ............. no,............ They would simply be placing their lives at risk for no reason at all, wouldn't they.

                                                                                                                                              Is that the sort of thing that I wouldn't understand because simply have not lived in your world? You may be right. I haven't wasted the lives of people that I was in command of. I always viewed that as "POINTLESS".

                                                                                                                                                #19.38 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:26 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                Yes you would have a problem. Two problems in fact. The first was that there would still have been no trial. The second "problem" your boys in the GOP would have with ANYTHING that came out of this White House was that there is a black guy in the Oval Office. Of course that isn't one you will talk about much is it?

                                                                                                                                                The fact remains that his rights were not afforded under the 5th. The rascist card? Really? That is a tremendously WEAK statement....even from you. When the argument is lost with leftists, the rascist card is the last resort....try again.

                                                                                                                                                By the language in the 4th, it would appear that the only acceptable arrest under the Constitution would be with a warrant, but that isn't the case is it? Is that because THAT provision of the Constitution is "inconvenient" or is it because it isn't practical and the Courts have created exceptions to that provision?

                                                                                                                                                The case was never made Dave....the man was not afforded his rights and I suspect, deep down in what you call logic, you know that fact. Was he afforded the right of the 5th or not? The answer is simple and I am sure you have used this line if you are a lawyer....yes or no? Stop quibbling, that is for weak people...yes or no?

                                                                                                                                                Now, I'm not familiar with a case where the Courts have ruled on the question of whether or not you can shoot an American citizen who is fighting against his country in a war, on a foreign battlefield, but I would be open to reading about it, if you have found one Corporal. Have you got one?

                                                                                                                                                The operative phrase is: you are not familiar. The Amendment is clear. Should you continue to hold the position you do (for political purposes only I am sure) then no American is safe from this administration. They can kill any time they wish as long as they have twisted minds that believe rights are only existent when it is politically convenient.

                                                                                                                                                You do realize that you are making my point with this statement don't you? You are claiming that lawyers can't do "the work that others, lesser people in the case of some lawyers, are incapable of accomplishing"

                                                                                                                                                Nope Dave...just you for the purposes of this conversation.

                                                                                                                                                so you are going to cry about how this poor "American citizen" wasn't afforded his rights,

                                                                                                                                                I am angered he did not get his rights from this administration...I am angered that he was murdered so the Pres could look tough as the elections loom. I am angered that there are citizens of this nation with so little understanding of the Constitution that they would allow this crim inal that inhabits the White House now to continue with his "politics" rather than doing what is Constitutionally driven. I am angered that there are those in our nation who claim to have some knowledge of the law fall under the heading of domestic enemies to the Constitution.

                                                                                                                                                while claiming that YOU, or should we say those who actually do their fighting from the ground, (you were Air Force aren't you?), do the "work that others,....... are incapable of accomplishing".

                                                                                                                                                I have spent my time with rifle in hand Dave....another weak and moronic statement to try to state there are many differences between our Services. While missions differ, there are plenty of ground forces in the Air Force and only one who is steeped in ignorance would try to make that distinction while devoid of the knowledge required to do it intelligently. The ground troops I supported with air coverage never lost a troop. Those calls for coverage were made from the ground Dave....

                                                                                                                                                Would that be like ordering someone to fire a missile rather than ordering someone to drop into a hostile country and execute a warrant ................ oh wait,.......... we already established that such a warrant wouldn't be enforceable in Yemen didn't we.............

                                                                                                                                                We have established that the attempt was never made to afford this citizen his Constitutional rights for the reason of convenience and political gain Dave.

                                                                                                                                                Oh, maybe they would be ............. no,............ They would simply be placing their lives at risk for no reason at all, wouldn't they.

                                                                                                                                                You make this too easy....your argument is now that Constitutional rights fall into the category of "no reason at all".....would that be no reason at all to afford the rights for convenience and political gain Dave?

                                                                                                                                                Is that the sort of thing that I wouldn't understand because simply have not lived in your world? You may be right. I haven't wasted the lives of people that I was in command of. I always viewed that as "POINTLESS".

                                                                                                                                                No Dave, your butt has never been on the line for anything, so you have not taken the real time to investigate what you propose to defend....so you simply caper on with your support of the murderous activities of the administration.

                                                                                                                                                Thje only thing pointless is a lawyer who does not understand Constitutional rights.

                                                                                                                                                  #19.39 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:12 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                  Mike,

                                                                                                                                                  Yes, according to Dave, Constitutional rights are pointless....Stalin and Mao would have been so proud of how far this nation has fallen.....

                                                                                                                                                    #19.40 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:15 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                                                                                    No Dave, your butt has never been on the line for anything, so you have not taken the real time to investigate what you propose to defend....so you simply caper on with your support of the murderous activities of the administration.

                                                                                                                                                    I spent twenty five years as a municipal cop, two years overseas as an International cop and fifteen months in Iraq. I probably spent more time in hostile environments that you have Corporal, but that is about as irrelevant as your idiotic statement is to this conversation isn't it.

                                                                                                                                                    Regarding the "murderous activities of the administration" simply shows how short your memory is Corporal. You have managed to dismiss the entire Bush administration doesn't it.

                                                                                                                                                    Yes, according to Dave, Constitutional rights are pointless....Stalin and Mao would have been so proud of how far this nation has fallen.....

                                                                                                                                                    Not to worry about it Corporal. It looks like the current administration is bringing us back from the pit that the previous administration dragged it down to.

                                                                                                                                                    By the way. I don't find the Constitutional rights to be pointless. I think that seeking a Grand Jury indictment for a guy when we can't execute a warrant based on such an indictment to be pointless, but that doesn't fit in with YOUR political agenda does it.

                                                                                                                                                      #19.41 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:56 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                      I spent twenty five years as a municipal cop, two years overseas as an International cop and fifteen months in Iraq. I probably spent more time in hostile environments that you have Corporal, but that is about as irrelevant as your idiotic statement is to this conversation isn't it.

                                                                                                                                                      You want to talk about the Air Force you get it with both barrels Dave....I suspect you were Admin....and you went to Iraq for the MONEY Dave....you never believed in the cause. Exactly the way your side descrives Blackwater and Xe.....where's the honor Dave?

                                                                                                                                                      Regarding the "murderous activities of the administration" simply shows how short your memory is Corporal. You have managed to dismiss the entire Bush administration doesn't it.

                                                                                                                                                      Show me where the Bush Administration killed US citizens without due process Dave...until then, all your bluster means zip.

                                                                                                                                                      Not to worry about it Corporal. It looks like the current administration is bringing us back from the pit that the previous administration dragged it down to.

                                                                                                                                                      The pit is murdering US citizens without due process Davie...

                                                                                                                                                      By the way. I don't find the Constitutional rights to be pointless. I think that seeking a Grand Jury indictment for a guy when we can't execute a warrant based on such an indictment to be pointless,

                                                                                                                                                      Once again...rights when convenient....Like I said, Stalin and Mao would have been very proud of you....

                                                                                                                                                      but that doesn't fit in with YOUR political agenda does it.

                                                                                                                                                      You're right here, a rare thing for you. My political agenda in the Constitution...and you are still dancing Davie Boy....did he get his rights or not?

                                                                                                                                                        #19.42 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:50 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                        DavePat

                                                                                                                                                        I suspect you were Admin

                                                                                                                                                        Colonel's do much ass in the grass work?

                                                                                                                                                        and you went to Iraq for the MONEY Dave....you never believed in the cause.

                                                                                                                                                        What exactly was the "cause" Corporal? The defeat of al Qeada? It wasn't there. Maybe the elimination of WMD? That wasn't there either was it?

                                                                                                                                                        My "cause" was to access the Iraqi Police when I was in Iraq the first time and mentoring the Iraqi Police in Ethics and Human Rights the second time. From that point of view, it looks like my "cause" was far more legitimate than yours.

                                                                                                                                                        I suppose you didn't get paid for your time overseas Corporal? Does that make YOUR service some how more "honorable"?

                                                                                                                                                        and you are still dancing Davie Boy

                                                                                                                                                        Don't recall having seen your position on torture Corporal. Is that a waltz or maybe a mambo on your part?

                                                                                                                                                          #19.43 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:01 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                          Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                          Dave,

                                                                                                                                                          Terribly sorry for the slow response to your very thoughtful and stimulating post. It seems to me that you still don't get it as the thoughtful part of your actions have yet to be accomplished...let's maddress your "thoughts" shall we?

                                                                                                                                                          Colonel's do much ass in the grass work?

                                                                                                                                                          While I cannot speak for all colonels I can speak for myself...you can either pay attention or you cal continue with your bantering approach to an important issue. Three counter sniper patrols at my direction as I do not ask my guys to do anything I would not do. Convoys in the double digits as I do not allow my guys to do what I will not do myself. Three VIED's danger close as I have survived a hostile environment, one of which caused the homeward bound flights of three of my comrades, I packed them up myself at the aircraft as I will not allow my guys to do anything I will not do myself. One assassination attempt directed at me, seems I was doing something right that a "lawyer" could not possibly fathom....does that satisfy your ignorance?

                                                                                                                                                          What exactly was the "cause" Corporal? The defeat of al Qeada? It wasn't there. Maybe the elimination of WMD? That wasn't there either was it?

                                                                                                                                                          This is a thought that is rampant in the more ignorant portion of our society. Saddam had used WMDon his own people in the form of murder of the Kurds in Norther Iraq...thus chemical weapons DID exist in Iraq as even the Clinton Administration recognized....one of their few intelligent thought regarding this subject. The UN believed the weapons existed...one of their few intelligent thoughts on this subject which led to numerous UN resolutions containing the threat of force. Saddam danced around the issue fopr 10 years and we put pressure on him to comply for 10 years. During that period, his aggressive actions led to Desert Strike and two Desert Fox actions as he moved troops in the direction of Kuwait...are you in favor of Saddam? Sure sounds like it to me....Saddam sympathizer Dave?

                                                                                                                                                          My "cause" was to access the Iraqi Police when I was in Iraq the first time and mentoring the Iraqi Police in Ethics and Human Rights the second time. From that point of view, it looks like my "cause" was far more legitimate than yours.

                                                                                                                                                          Yet you did not believe in the efforts of the United States and ouraction in Iraq. We have also been over your training before you deployed. You had NO training on the culture of Iraqis specifically and Arabs in general so your efforts were acomplishedin the blind. You had no idea what you were doing. I also remember your denial of the "ethics" portion of your mission in previous posts....what exactlkywere you doing to meld the ethics of Iraqis? Were you trying to force Western ethics as you see them on their culture? If so, how successful were you in changing the deep culturalbeliefs of Arabs when dealing with each other between their tribal, culturaldifferences? More to the point, how is negotiation viewed with respect to their cultural beliefs? The answer you give to this question will illuminate for those who are still following this seed on the depth of your knowledge which appears sorely lacking to me. Had you be;lieved in your mission rather than your wallet, you might have an argument...you have not convinced me of any honor on your point but it may still be possible.

                                                                                                                                                          I suppose you didn't get paid for your time overseas Corporal? Does that make YOUR service some how more "honorable"?

                                                                                                                                                          I got paid what military members get paid given their rank...and I believed and still believe in the mission You got the exorbinant pay given to those who do the job as a contractor who sees the chance to make huge payoffs whether or not they believe in the effort. Those that accomplish the mission while believing are, in my opinion, more honorable than those that accomplish the mission to simply fill their bank accounts...so yes, my actions were more honorable than yours.

                                                                                                                                                          Don't recall having seen your position on torture Corporal. Is that a waltz or maybe a mambo on your part?

                                                                                                                                                          Your short memory is killing your debating skills counsellor...I mentioned above that you would get my feelings on torture once you had addressed the topic of this seed....did a United States citizen receive his Constitutional rights under the 5th Amendment or not? You have continued to defend the actions of the current administration in the killing of this citizen without the benefit of an indictment of a Grand Jury. This means to me, that you would agree with the killing of US citizens without benefit of rights for political purposes. I find that despicable. Once you come to grips with the topic of this seed and either state the position of the administration was correct here, or agree that his rights were violated Dave, you will get my position....and until then, you may continue to dance as only those committed ideologues dance.

                                                                                                                                                            #19.44 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:03 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                            DavePat

                                                                                                                                                            Saddam had used WMDon his own people in the form of murder of the Kurds in Norther Iraq...thus chemical weapons DID exist in Iraq as even the Clinton Administration recognized....one of their few intelligent thought regarding this subject.

                                                                                                                                                            There were a lot of things that DID exist in Iraq. The point was that when George W put us at war with Iraq, the chemical weapons only existed in George W's mind. There were a few obsolete chemical weapons but the "Mobil chemical weapons labs" that he tried to push as his reason for going into Iraq weren't there. His program didn't exist any more.

                                                                                                                                                            Then of course, we had the nuclear weapons program. There was some old yellow cake but nothing to use to convert it into usable nuclear material for a weapon. Unless you want to go with those aluminum tubs that "could only be used for in a centrifuge" but it turned out that they wouldn't work for that at all, and weren't even well suited for the reason he had them. Missile construction.

                                                                                                                                                            The UN believed the weapons existed...one of their few intelligent thoughts on this subject which led to numerous UN resolutions containing the threat of force.

                                                                                                                                                            But the UN didn't any more did they? The IAEA was steady telling everybody who would listen that the Iraqi nuclear program wasn't there any more and that the sanctions were apparently working. Yea, the UN thought the Iraqi programs were still there, and set up the sanctions and resolutions, but, apparently, the sanctions were working since when George W. went to war, the WMD he claimed were there, WEREN'T.

                                                                                                                                                            Yet you did not believe in the efforts of the United States and ouraction in Iraq.

                                                                                                                                                            As stated above, it looks like I was right, since the efforts in Iraq were based on cherry picked intelligence that turned out to be phony.

                                                                                                                                                            You had no idea what you were doing. I also remember your denial of the "ethics" portion of your mission in previous posts....what exactlkywere you doing to meld the ethics of Iraqis? Were you trying to force Western ethics as you see them on their culture?

                                                                                                                                                            What I was doing was assist the Iraqis who were already teaching an ethics and human rights program modeled on the United Nations human rights program. You remember the UN program on human rights don't you Corporal? They have a really good program opposing torture. They followed OUR lead on that and got a lot of input from OUR representative because we USED BE REAL BIG ON OUR OPPOSITION TO TORTURE.

                                                                                                                                                            Neat thing about the UN and its' programs on human rights. It has the support of not only the nations that represent the "western culture", they also have the support of the Arab nations as well. More so than the support the U.S. got on the invasion of Iraq. That didn't even have the support of the French and the Germans did it.

                                                                                                                                                            Had you be;lieved in your mission rather than your wallet, you might have an argument...you have not convinced me of any honor on your point but it may still be possible.

                                                                                                                                                            I did believe in MY mission Corporal. My mission was to mentor the Iraqi Police in ethics and human rights based on an internationally accepted standard. It was YOUR mission I didn't support. That would be the invasion of a country based on cherry picked intelligence that turned out to be fake and cost more U.S. deaths than 9/11 which Iraq had nothing to do with.

                                                                                                                                                            Those that accomplish the mission while believing are, in my opinion, more honorable than those that accomplish the mission to simply fill their bank accounts...so yes, my actions were more honorable than yours.

                                                                                                                                                            As I mentioned. My mission was to push for internationally accepted standards in ethics and human rights. What was your mission again? Oh yea, the invasion of a country that was no threat to our country and based on false intelligence that cost our country lives, treasure and international credibility. Your sense of honor sort of eludes me there Corporal. Probably follows your position on torture though so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised should I?

                                                                                                                                                              #19.45 - Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:04 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                              Dave...drivel all...let me know when you wish to discuss the MURDER of a US citizen, which is the topic of this seed.

                                                                                                                                                              BTW...I always know you lack the intellectual argument when you refer to me as corporal....do you have a problem with enlisted troops? Sure looks "condescending" to me.

                                                                                                                                                                #19.46 - Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:26 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                I have no problem with enlisted troops. Just with you.

                                                                                                                                                                By the way. Which of the Confederate soldiers who were killed in the Civil War, were MURDERED? I don't believe there were many of them who were indicted. Does that make them the victim of murder by the U.S. government? They were U.S. citizens you know.

                                                                                                                                                                  #19.47 - Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:01 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                  I have no problem with enlisted troops. Just with you.

                                                                                                                                                                  Well...given your knowledge of the 5th Ammendment, I want you to have a problem with me Dave. I am so happy to see you do not fall into the anti-military garbage that sometimes denigrates our troops. You did confuse me when you slung the rank like and insult and it is good to see you don't fall into that despicable group.

                                                                                                                                                                  That stated, it appears you are incapable of giving an answer on whther or not the subject of this article got his Constitutional rights or not....seems you are using all your lawyer wiggle room to deflect and dodge. And that is the reason you have a problem with me Dave...you are still on the hook for a straight answer.

                                                                                                                                                                    #19.48 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 3:19 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                    Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                    Which of the Confederate soldiers who were killed in the Civil War, were MURDERED? I don't believe there were many of them who were indicted.

                                                                                                                                                                    Those Confederate soldiers killed in the civil war were ACTIVELY engaged in hostilities and that is NOT the situation discussed here. We're not talking about an active battlefield where soldiers were coming under fire. They were also, at THAT point, NOT U.S. Citizens, fighting for states that had seceded from the Union.

                                                                                                                                                                    Anwar was NOT actively engaged in hostilities, he was not killed in 'combat' and was not on a 'battlefield' unless you buy into the 'world is the battlefield' philosophy being perpetrated in a seeming to attempt at what we have here, to subvert the constitution in the name of security.

                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                    #19.49 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 5:43 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                    Where exactly is the battlefield? Is it in Afghanistan? Maybe also in Iraq? If Iraq, then how about Yemen? Is it anywhere that al Qaeda is located? If not, then where? Should we limit the battlefield to only al Qaeda's home country? Where is that? Hell that only works if you buy off on the idea that this is a "War" like the Bush administration sold at the start. It's like the "War on Poverty" or the "War on Drugs". It is in name only.

                                                                                                                                                                    The thing about it is, Bush and the boys passed their chance to seek a diplomatic attempt to make the "War on Terrorism" an international law enforcement issue. Instead, they went into Iraq for no reason and turned world opinion against us as an imperialistic war monger rather than the victim of terrorism.

                                                                                                                                                                    Now, we have squandered that opportunity and may not see such an opportunity again because we will continue to be viewed as imperialistic until we have shown a different approach for years. Until they start changing the whole approach, we are stuck with the "war" scenario and calling the world a battlefield as justification for the approach being taken.

                                                                                                                                                                    By the way. Anwar was actively engaged. He might not have been at the moment he was killed but I doubt that you can say that he wasn't "actively engaged", unless you want to limit the definition of "actively engaged" as having a loaded gun in your hands and firing it.

                                                                                                                                                                    The other thing is you really are wasting your time running a Grand Jury on someone you don't have in custody and little or no chance of having in your custody. IF he had been captured, then his case would have been brought to a Grand Jury and the whole judicial process followed, in a CIVILIAN COURT.

                                                                                                                                                                      #19.50 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 10:17 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                      Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                      If Iraq, then how about Yemen?

                                                                                                                                                                      Bush sought congressional approval to send troops to Afghanistan as well as Iraq. That make THOSE specifically battlefields. Yemen was no such case. In Afghanistan you had an uncooperative government hosting and financing the terrorists, Yemen has at least proven to be somewhat cooperative when it comes to capturing known wanted terrorists on their soil. Hardly a 'battlefield'.

                                                                                                                                                                      unless you want to limit the definition of "actively engaged" as having a loaded gun in your hands and firing it.

                                                                                                                                                                      That pretty much IS the definition of Actively Engaged and no evidence was released to show he was an imminent threat.

                                                                                                                                                                      The other thing is you really are wasting your time running a Grand Jury on someone you don't have in custody and little or no chance of having in your custody. IF he had been captured, then his case would have been brought to a Grand Jury and the whole judicial process followed, in a CIVILIAN COURT.

                                                                                                                                                                      You can really stop with the 'IF' B.S. because with this administration, that wasn't even on the table. Your rights wouldn't mean $#!t if they were prefaced with "If we decide to capture you instead of shoot you in the back'.

                                                                                                                                                                      The order was a capture or kill order. Something like an arrest warrant only leaving the option to kill wouldn't you say. The problem is, the government is SUPPOSED to actually GET a warrant in which they're SUPPOSED to show probable cause. No grand jury is needed, no one needs to be in custody, to have at least followed SOME aspect of DUE PROCESS.

                                                                                                                                                                      If you're OK with Presidents arbitrarily deciding who dies without having to show evidence or follow the law he's sworn to, so be it. I think it's disgusting.

                                                                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                      #19.51 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 11:29 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                      DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                      Did YOU want to go into the back country of Yemen and hunt for the guy Mike? I hear it over and over again that this is the "War" on terror, and that it isn't a law enforcement matter. Well, if it is a war, and there is a guy fighting on the other side, then you deal with him as any other enemy.

                                                                                                                                                                      If memory serves, wasn't John Walker Lindh captured in November of 2001 and indicted by a federal Grand Jury in like February of 2002? Was he deprived of his rights?

                                                                                                                                                                      Oh wait. That was when Bush was President wasn't it? Now I see the difference.

                                                                                                                                                                        #19.52 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 1:10 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                        Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                        Where exactly is the battlefield? Is it in Afghanistan? Maybe also in Iraq? If Iraq, then how about Yemen? Is it anywhere that al Qaeda is located? If not, then where? Should we limit the battlefield to only al Qaeda's home country? Where is that? Hell that only works if you buy off on the idea that this is a "War" like the Bush administration sold at the start. It's like the "War on Poverty" or the "War on Drugs". It is in name only.

                                                                                                                                                                        Yet this is not the discussion in this article, the discussion is regards the RIGHTS of a US citizen which you seem to either miss, or disregard for political reasons....which is it Dave?

                                                                                                                                                                        Did YOU want to go into the back country of Yemen and hunt for the guy Mike? I hear it over and over again that this is the "War" on terror, and that it isn't a law enforcement matter. Well, if it is a war, and there is a guy fighting on the other side, then you deal with him as any other enemy.

                                                                                                                                                                        I see this over and over again from you Dave...seems you think you shouldn't because it's too hard. It's not for some and had an indictment been accomplished, and had the administration adhered to the 5th Ammendement, there are some with a little more fortitude who would have followed the trail to pick him up. Oh wait, but then you would have decried his "rights" as a US citizen. You cannot have it both ways Dave...pick a side and stick to it or it smells of hypocrisy.

                                                                                                                                                                        If memory serves, wasn't John Walker Lindh captured in November of 2001 and indicted by a federal Grand Jury in like February of 2002? Was he deprived of his rights?

                                                                                                                                                                        Yes he was and look closely at the dates again Dave. Under what administration was this US citizen afforded his rights?

                                                                                                                                                                        Oh wait. That was when Bush was President wasn't it? Now I see the difference.

                                                                                                                                                                        BRAVO! You have this one right for a change...he was afforded his rights as a US citizen under the Bush Administration, unlike the Obama Regime who simply murders.

                                                                                                                                                                          #19.53 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 3:01 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                          DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                          Yes he was and look closely at the dates again Dave. Under what administration was this US citizen afforded his rights?

                                                                                                                                                                          Right AFTER he was captured.

                                                                                                                                                                            #19.54 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 4:59 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                            He was afforded his rights under the Constitution Dave....under the last Administration....

                                                                                                                                                                            unlike the current administration Dave....

                                                                                                                                                                            Seems the individual in the WH cares not for the Constitutional rights of citizens when he can make a headline....Dave.

                                                                                                                                                                            It also seems there are lawyers out there who will support unConstitutional moves by an administration based on political gamesmanship dave.....very sad commentary on the profession dave.

                                                                                                                                                                              #19.55 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:20 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                              DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                              It also seems there are lawyers out there who will support unConstitutional moves by an administration based on political gamesmanship

                                                                                                                                                                              Yea. We are all pretty ashamed of John Yoo, but what can you say. He gave George W. what he wanted to hear about how torture was "legal" so he is one of your neocon icons now.

                                                                                                                                                                              By the way, You do know that Lindh was indicted three months AFTER he was CAPTURED didn't you? Or does that not fit in your "political gamesmanship" so you see no need to deal with that little detail?

                                                                                                                                                                                #19.56 - Sun Dec 4, 2011 8:35 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                                Oh wait. That was when Bush was President wasn't it? Now I see the difference.

                                                                                                                                                                                I doubt that you do, but thank you for making my point. Even a combatant actively engaged in battle, rifle in hand, can get Due Process when he drops the rifle. He was afforded that because he was a U.S. citizen and not only subjected to, but also protected BY the U.S. Constitution and other U.S. laws.

                                                                                                                                                                                You keep bringing up diversions with unrelated cases of little or no relevance withe little no similarities. You cannot escape the facts.

                                                                                                                                                                                President Obama ordered the killing of a U.S. Citizen in a covert operation, no warrant, no hearing, no evidence of any kind brought forth to justify such a conviction. Just arbitrary execution. This could be you, me or anyone we know, should they decide we MAY be a threat and find it INCONVENIENT to try to capture us.

                                                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                #19.57 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 4:01 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                Mike,

                                                                                                                                                                                President Obama ordered the killing of a U.S. Citizen in a covert operation, no warrant, no hearing, no evidence of any kind brought forth to justify such a conviction. Just arbitrary execution. This could be you, me or anyone we know, should they decide we MAY be a threat and find it INCONVENIENT to try to capture us.

                                                                                                                                                                                Exactly! This is the point Dave appears to miss as he continues his effort of deflection and gamesmanship. I guess some lawyers are more adept at argument, for the sake of argument, than the rights of US citizens.

                                                                                                                                                                                  #19.58 - Mon Dec 5, 2011 9:55 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                  thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, this is a complicated case. On one hand he was a US citizen, admittedly facing charges of treason, and entitled to rights there of. On the other he was in a foreign land actively supporting an enemy of these United States.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The administration would have been faced with three general options:

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. Either request that Yemen take him into custody or send our own people to do that themselves with the consent of the government. Which is risky not only for those sent to get him, but we would also have to reveal to the government of Yemen(which as recent events have shown is thoroughly penetrated and largely incapable of hiding much from its general population) that we knew the location and traveling arrangements of this person. We would have also been forced to reveal how we learned these things in open courts, but there are various ways of getting around that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  2. Send in personal to capture him. Which essentially amounts to the invasion of a "friendly" nation for the purposes of killing or incapacitating several of its citizens to extract one of our own, without the knowledge of the host government. Admittedly something most administrations would consider, and something this administration has done. However it opens a large legal can of worms about the sovereignty of states, and the right of a government to kidnap its citizens from foreign lands(any personal sent in covertly would have no power to make an arrest until out of Yemen). And the presence of American troops may have served to exacerbate the situation unfolding in Yemen.
                                                                                                                                                                                  3. Simply roast the f*cker. Which why legally troublesome, in this case is the least annoying and easiest to implement.

                                                                                                                                                                                  One must also consider that an American citizen only enjoys his rights, when on American soil. Once off it issues become less clear...

                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                  #19.59 - Wed Dec 7, 2011 12:56 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thinking....had he been afforded the right of a Grand Jury, I would not disagree with the actions taken. The fact remains, he was NOT afforded his rights. An American citizen is afforded his rights when dealing with his own nation....

                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.60 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 12:47 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                    thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                    AC,

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are three ways I can see the administration wiggling around this:

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. They empaneleda secret grand jury, it has been done before and Presidents are rather fond of legally covering their asses. If this is the case we'll both find out about it a hundred or so years after we're dead.
                                                                                                                                                                                    2. While required by the 5th to secure an indictment through a grand jury through capital cases, it is also allowable by the same amendment to take action "...in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger". A case could rather easily be made for him representing a public danger.
                                                                                                                                                                                    3. The administration considers him a member of group in arms against the United States and therefore an enemy combatant, as such only protected if he surrenders. In which case it is no longer a matter for civil or criminal law, but the prosecution of a combat action. On that ground the President has fairly complete control.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am a practical man. In this case you have an American citizen in a foreign country, part of a hostile group and acting as its agent. Killing him was an easy fix, I wouldn't waste my outrage on this. Because this falls squarelyin the gray area, fairly close to the line, but by no means over it. If this had occurred on American soil or the soil of an actual allies though things would be different.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.61 - Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:39 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                                    They empaneleda secret grand jury

                                                                                                                                                                                    Grand Juries are used indict, not convict people of crimes. We also don't use 'secret courts' under constitutional law.

                                                                                                                                                                                    An enemy combatant is one who is engaged on a battlefield, one who has the option of fighting or surrendering. Obviously troops would not be expected to check citizenship of those firing at them just as cops don't have to read rights of criminals trying to kill them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A 'public danger' would also have to be an eminent threat. Considering the time between the order to capture or kill and the actual event on top of the fact he was in another country, there is NO evidence to support he was an eminent threat to the U.S. public.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The President also has NO power to arbitrarily decide who is and who isn't an enemy combatant. But again, an enemy combatant is one who takes up arms and no evidence supports that.

                                                                                                                                                                                    If this had occurred on American soil or the soil of an actual allies though things would be different.

                                                                                                                                                                                    We are not at war with Yemen. As a matter of fact, the operation was carried out with Yemenese assistance and Yemen has assisted with the finding and CAPTURING of many other suspected terrorist supporters so what exactly makes this any different than any other 'real' allied country?

                                                                                                                                                                                    What you still have is a President who arbitrarily decided to kill a SPECIFIC U.S. citizen in another country without presenting evidence in ANY public forum for the justification of such a decision, nor are there any outlined laws, rules or regulation concerning how or what is required for the President to come to such a conclusion. There's no gray area here. Nothing to stop it from happening on U.S. soil or any other 'allied' nation. Yes, YOU should be concerned.

                                                                                                                                                                                      #19.62 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:21 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thinking...

                                                                                                                                                                                      The fifth is rather clear:

                                                                                                                                                                                      No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, , except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am always outraged when politicians deprive American citizens of their rights.

                                                                                                                                                                                        #19.63 - Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:41 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                        thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                        Mike-

                                                                                                                                                                                        1) Once you have an indictment you can issue an international warrant, and you can classify that warrant so it never sees the light of day. Empowering agents of the government to capture or kill said person, it often happens that the latter option is chosen.

                                                                                                                                                                                        2) The United States actually has a rather long history of secret courts. For more see the Lincoln Presidency.

                                                                                                                                                                                        3) An enemy combatant is not necessarily limited to those on the battlefield. Supply and logistics personal are the prime example of this stretching. Then training personal, the manufacturing sections, and other support personal.

                                                                                                                                                                                        4) As for a public danger, this was after Yemen became important again in the wake of the Christmas Day bomber. Causing a reevaluation of threats.

                                                                                                                                                                                        5) There are things we do not and do tell Yemen, as recent events demonstrate Yemen is not in full command of its security apparatus and you don't share anything important where you don't have a full accounting of who might be listening...

                                                                                                                                                                                        6) No President makes a decision in vacuum. Such an order to carry out a targeted killing would be debated by a matter of course, reviewed by a legal staff, and advised upon by men with lots of stars on their collars. They obviously agreed it was in the best interest to fry the SOB.

                                                                                                                                                                                        AC-I would shed more tears if he wasn't a traitor. I also found a rather obscure Supreme Court ruling that would give the Administration even more wiggle room, "317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942): “Citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy government, and with its aid, guidance and direction enter this country bent on hostile acts are enemy belligerents within the meaning of the Hague Convention and the law of war.”"

                                                                                                                                                                                        A very dumb lawyer(as if there is another kind) could successfully argue for a slight expansion to exclude the "enter the country" bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                          #19.64 - Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:45 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                          Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                          AC-I would shed more tears if he wasn't a traitor. I also found a rather obscure Supreme Court ruling that would give the Administration even more wiggle room, "317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942): “Citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy government, and with its aid, guidance and direction enter this country bent on hostile acts are enemy belligerents within the meaning of the Hague Convention and the law of war.”"

                                                                                                                                                                                          Once again...the 5th reads:

                                                                                                                                                                                          No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, , except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I believe a lawyer could argue the administration committed murder.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                          #19.65 - Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:23 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                          thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                          Lawyers can argue anything if you pay them enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                          However I already said the administration could argue he represented a public danger, which does away with the need for courts in the interest of the public good. Or using the aforementioned Supreme Court ruling (or one of a dozen or so other documents) to consider him an enemy combatant, therefore subject to the Geneva Convention first and Constitution second.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Now if the Supreme Court (yea old champions of Constitutional law) states you can find an American citizen an enemy combatant then you can treat him as such. That means the targeted killing is legal.

                                                                                                                                                                                            #19.66 - Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:39 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thinking,

                                                                                                                                                                                            Let me break this down for you and read this very carefully:

                                                                                                                                                                                            No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime,

                                                                                                                                                                                            That means no citizen, nobody...may be held to a crime....

                                                                                                                                                                                            , except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;

                                                                                                                                                                                            This involves the Uniformed Code of Military Justice and is not a player germaine to the subject at hand....

                                                                                                                                                                                            nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,

                                                                                                                                                                                            Your standard 5th interpretation and also not germain to the discussion here.....

                                                                                                                                                                                            nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                                                                                                                                                                                            This involves deprivation of life (which means executed for the less than aware) without legal maneuvers which in this case, DID NOT HAPPEN.....maybe this is clear enough for you although I suspect your political leanings and your support for the current administration will not allow you to see this fact.

                                                                                                                                                                                            If this is a legal move by the administration, then none of us are safe from our own government....is that clear enough for you? As due process was not afforded this citizen, this act was murder.

                                                                                                                                                                                              #19.67 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:06 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                              thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                              AC, our discussions are usually more stimulating than this. You are not refuting my assertions, but merely repeating your talking point. Instead of seeing this as a unique case (because not all that many Americans have through in with the enemy) with a certainly questionable, but still legitimate, legal justification that resolved the issue in a manner mutually satisfactory for all parties involved (except the dead guy), you seem to be trying to use this to score points against an administration you detest (often with good reason). And people wonder why I detest politics.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I have had my say, have a good one.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                              #19.68 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:30 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                              Your assertions are not logical...they follow a similar path to the argumental types you have used in the past. "What if they did it in secret" is central to your argument....you may as well mention that little green people told the Administration it was okay to kill because a large portion of the American people either 1 would not care, 2 revell in the fact that a bad guy was killed or 3, not understand the Constitution. While the rule of law and the Constitution may not be "stimulating" for you, the fact remains that, unless this Administration has a strong tug on their choke collar, the lives of US citizens mean nothing unless they are viewed from the lens of political expediency. Bush was hated by the Left and Bush never played this game......

                                                                                                                                                                                                #19.69 - Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:53 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually I gave you three logical arguments, only one of them involved secrecy. The others were work arounds, rather workable work arounds to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The law is constantly changing, because our world is constantly changing. The powers of the government expand and contract based on what is needed at the time. Sometimes it is rather scary, other time (like now) it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Bush never played this game? Bush never gave orders that violated American and International law and covenant? Seriously? All Presidents do horrible things, not always out of necessity and almost always they are illegal. All Presidents also do the occasional good thing, and often it is wrapped in a paper thin justification which is constantly overstated and used to justify a response many times in excess of what was truly need. Its the American way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                the lives of US citizens mean nothing unless they are viewed from the lens of political expediency.

                                                                                                                                                                                                You misspoke, when viewed through the lens of political expediency everything becomes a relative value.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                #19.70 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:37 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                                                Spinning your wheels there thinking aloud.

                                                                                                                                                                                                You can't explain something to someone who can't see past his political bias.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  #19.71 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:02 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thinking,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually I gave you three logical arguments, only one of them involved secrecy. The others were work arounds, rather workable work arounds to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There are no work-arounds for the Constitution.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The law is constantly changing, because our world is constantly changing. The powers of the government expand and contract based on what is needed at the time. Sometimes it is rather scary, other time (like now) it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Constitution is stationary and the law of the land.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bush never played this game? Bush never gave orders that violated American and International law and covenant? Seriously? All Presidents do horrible things, not always out of necessity and almost always they are illegal. All Presidents also do the occasional good thing, and often it is wrapped in a paper thin justification which is constantly overstated and used to justify a response many times in excess of what was truly need. Its the American way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Show me where Bush killed a US citizen without due process....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You misspoke, when viewed through the lens of political expediency everything becomes a relative value.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not in context with the Constitution..

                                                                                                                                                                                                  And Dave:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Spinning your wheels there thinking aloud.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can't explain something to someone who can't see past his political bias.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're right...my bias is I believe in the Constitution for US citizens...you, on the other hand, would disregard the Constitution when it is convenient for your guy in the WH to look tough. I also look at it this way....I am really glad at least one of us took his oath to the Constitution seriously....sorry you were just playing when you took yours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.72 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:24 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                    thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                                    AC,

                                                                                                                                                                                                    There are no work-arounds for the Constitution.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually there are, many. And the Supreme Court rules on more each year. Or have you found the section of the Constitution that allows the President to suspend habious corpus, send Americans to concentration camps, or prevent him from using troops to enforce Federal law?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Constitution is stationary and the law of the land.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hardly, not only are you able to amend the document Constitutional law has expanded considerably to reflect not only the document but the moral context of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Show me where Bush killed a US citizen without due process

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well without getting political I can't. I can however point out that he set up policy of using drones to kill specific targets, and started using them in foreign countries regardless of their wishes. Without which precedent Obama could have taken no action.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not in context with the Constitution..

                                                                                                                                                                                                    President Jefferson, one of the guys who wrote the Constitution played chicken with it during his Presidency in order to achieve his goal. Political expediency makes all values relative. Doubling the size of the country on one hand, not specifically being empowered to do so on the other...which one won out again?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.73 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:07 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                    DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                                                    thinking

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think that Jefferson was out of the country when the Constitution was written, but the rest of what you said is true but wasted on the Corporal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      #19.74 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:26 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thinking,

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Was the individual afforded his Constitutional rights under the 5th Ammendment or not?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave,

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think that Jefferson was out of the country when the Constitution was written, but the rest of what you said is true but wasted on the Corporal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Once again you try to insult based on the use of an enlisted rank on me...I find your opinions of the American enlisted, which you feel is an insult, a COH violation...reported as such.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        #19.75 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:33 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thinking,

                                                                                                                                                                                                        On further thought, let's address your point one at a time:

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually there are, many. And the Supreme Court rules on more each year. Or have you found the section of the Constitution that allows the President to suspend habious corpus, send Americans to concentration camps, or prevent him from using troops to enforce Federal law?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please provide a specific point where the Supreme Court has ruled the 5th Ammendment null and void for an American citizen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hardly, not only are you able to amend the document Constitutional law has expanded considerably to reflect not only the document but the moral context of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please provide a specific ammenment process that has rendered the 5th Ammendment null and void.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well without getting political I can't. I can however point out that he set up policy of using drones to kill specific targets, and started using them in foreign countries regardless of their wishes. Without which precedent Obama could have taken no action.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please provide a specific example where the Bush Administration used a drone to kill an American citizen without due process under the 5th Ammendment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        President Jefferson, one of the guys who wrote the Constitution played chicken with it during his Presidency in order to achieve his goal. Political expediency makes all values relative. Doubling the size of the country on one hand, not specifically being empowered to do so on the other...which one won out again?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        What, EXACTLY, does this have to do with the killing of an American citizen without due process guaranteed under the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution? Looks like fluffy rhetoric to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          #19.76 - Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:46 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                          thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                                          AC-

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1) Already did, for eight American citizens (two may have been naturalized Germans) actually. As active armed supporters of the Nazis the supreme court held they were enemy combatants rather than American citizens, therefore not afford any 5th protections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          2) I can cite precedent by the thousands of pages. From Washington to Lincoln to FDR and so forth and so on. I can also direct you to databases of Constitutional law, which has more to do with the interpretation of the Constitution then its expansion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          3) An oddly specific question...would it not count if the administration had used a gun, needle, or bomb? But no Bush never ordered the targeted killing of an American citizen(only because so few have actively sided with our enemies) he did however order the targeted killings of Pakistanis, Thais, Saudis, Iraqis, Iranians, some Brits, and the list goes on and on. Without trial. He also ordered the indefinite detention of even suspected terrorists, including Americans.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          4) What does an administration taking on non-constitutional powers to influence the course of a country and lives of its citizens have to do with an administration taking on non-constitutional powers to influence course of a country and the life of one of its citizens? Here let me think for a minute...

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                          #19.77 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:11 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                          DavePatDeleted
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                                                          39.78 deleted for personal attacks, attack the comment, not the commenter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            #19.79 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:33 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                            1) Already did, for eight American citizens (two may have been naturalized Germans) actually. As active armed supporters of the Nazis the supreme court held they were enemy combatants rather than American citizens, therefore not afford any 5th protections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Link? And then maker the connection between an American citizen who was not afforded his rights and follow it through step by step....your word alone is not quite good enough when it comes to the killing of US citizens without due process.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            2) I can cite precedent by the thousands of pages. From Washington to Lincoln to FDR and so forth and so on. I can also direct you to databases of Constitutional law, which has more to do with the interpretation of the Constitution then its expansion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Precendent where US citizens were killed by their government without due process...please, get on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            3) An oddly specific question...would it not count if the administration had used a gun, needle, or bomb? But no Bush never ordered the targeted killing of an American citizen(only because so few have actively sided with our enemies) he did however order the targeted killings of Pakistanis, Thais, Saudis, Iraqis, Iranians, some Brits, and the list goes on and on. Without trial. He also ordered the indefinite detention of even suspected terrorists, including Americans.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            All non0US citizens with the exception of US citizens detained under the rule of law...make the link.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            4) What does an administration taking on non-constitutional powers to influence the course of a country and lives of its citizens have to do with an administration taking on non-constitutional powers to influence course of a country and the life of one of its citizens? Here let me think for a minute...

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Keep thinking....you may come to the correct conclusion....

                                                                                                                                                                                                              #19.80 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:12 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Mike...thank you for your defense of the young enlisted....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                #19.81 - Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:19 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                                                                There was nothing said about "young enlisted"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #19.82 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:26 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  AC-

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1) Google 317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942), it will take you right to the case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  2) First off you are taking my reply out of context. But right off the top of my head Lincoln comes to mind. His conspirators, despite being US citizens and not uniformed members of the armed rebellion were tried in military court, denied appeal and summarily executed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3) Two words Jose Padilla. There was another public case, but that was rather special. 3 1/2 years without trial or charge...wait this sounds familiar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  4) The correct conclusion, blindly agree with you? I refer to you "Not a Suicide Pact: the Constitution in a Time of National Emergency" a rather short read by a highly respected Federal judge on the legality of the government taking super-Constitutional powers during times of strife or emergency.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.83 - Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:39 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,,,,a corporal is a young enlisted troop and you slung the moniker as an insult...shame on you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.84 - Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:09 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thinking,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1) Google 317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942), it will take you right to the case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A federal court may refuse to issue a writ of habeas corpus where the facts alleged in the petition, if proved, would not warrant discharge of the prisoner...okay...where did the court in question refuse to issue? Bring your old court case forward to today and tell us where the court refused to offer....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2) First off you are taking my reply out of context. But right off the top of my head Lincoln comes to mind. His conspirators, despite being US citizens and not uniformed members of the armed rebellion were tried in military court, denied appeal and summarily executed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tried in military court...you mean those guys who got a form of justice unlike the individual, who was murdered without justice by the current administration. You mean those guys?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    3) Two words Jose Padilla. There was another public case, but that was rather special. 3 1/2 years without trial or charge...wait this sounds familiar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    another public case....the one who got time after he received his justice in court? You mean that guy? Your examples are failing you...oh wait...in your mind we should have simply killed him for convenience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4) The correct conclusion, blindly agree with you? I refer to you "Not a Suicide Pact: the Constitution in a Time of National Emergency" a rather short read by a highly respected Federal judge on the legality of the government taking super-Constitutional powers during times of strife or emergency.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    And this is where we differ...I will not set aside the basis of our system when it is inconvenient and people "deserve killing" in your mind....that is when we need the document the most.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #19.85 - Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:18 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    DavePatDeleted
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Colonel's military experience/ knowledge or actual rank is not the subject. 19.86 deleted. If you are able to counter his statements, please do so but HE is not the subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #19.87 - Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:41 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      DavePat

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And yet, my comments were deleted as off topic and his were not. Funny how that worked out isn't it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #19.88 - Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:25 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Okay Dave...want to stay on topic? Was the man afforded his 5th Amendment rights of indictment under a grand jury before he was executed by the current administration?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #19.89 - Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:48 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mike of the North

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There was absolutely nothing in 19.86 that was on topic, the entire post was about Another Colonel's rank which you may choose to believe or not but is not the subject here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I very rarely delete comments and do not do so lightly but I do feel that they should contribute to the conversation rather than detract from it. There is a notable difference as well between a short off topic response to something in a post and a long exaggerated attack on someone with no relation to the subject at hand.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I Do appreciate ALL of your contributions to the discussion and I feel it is an important one, much to important to let get sidetracked.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #19.90 - Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:59 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            thinking aloud

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry I've been away for a while for sun, sand, exotic women and so on. Hope everyone had a happy holiday.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            AC-

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A federal court may refuse to issue a writ of habeas corpus where the facts alleged in the petition, if proved, would not warrant discharge of the prisoner...okay...where did the court in question refuse to issue? Bring your old court case forward to today and tell us where the court refused to offer....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            All of which has nothing to do with the court case or the precedent I was attempting to bring to light. The Court plainly said that American citizens in service to a nation that the United States is at war with can be stripped of their rights as American citizens and considered enemy combatants...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tried in military court...you mean those guys who got a form of justice unlike the individual, who was murdered without justice by the current administration. You mean those guys?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well if you consider a public "whipping" before delivering a pre-ordained sentence a trial. The fact stands they were American citizen deserving of a public trial and their guilt decided by a jury of their peers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            another public case....the one who got time after he received his justice in court? You mean that guy? Your examples are failing you...oh wait...in your mind we should have simply killed him for convenience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            AC that was in response to your assertion that under the Bush administration only non-Americans were detained. And if you think its ok to be held for 3 1/2 years without charge as long as you get "trial" only after the administration becomes assured of a conviction...well then that's a contradiction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And this is where we differ...I will not set aside the basis of our system when it is inconvenient and people "deserve killing" in your mind....that is when we need the document the most.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Then in that you are in the vast minority. In a perfect world the Constitution would cover every scenario and there would be no need to delve into the gray area of Constitutional law to carry out often immoral acts in service of the greater good. However in that perfect world there would also be no need of soldiers, assassins, and spies. We do not live in a perfect world...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #19.91 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:09 PM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              .

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #19.92 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:18 AM EST
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Mongowildman

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                YOUR book means nothing nor should it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Like I care what you think?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have my opinion, like it or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If a person actively and knowingly joins up with an enemy, I don't care what the libbies that think he could be rehabilitated say, he is an enemy combatant living with the enemy and therefore subject to whatever happens to an enemy combatant. Treason is treason and that tops the list of qualifications of a traitor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply#20 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                rareety

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm with ya, Mike! All the sorry pieces of Non-U.S. Citizen Camel Dung in Gitmo get U.S. Constiutional Rights, they're "Terrorists", too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So which is it? Mr. President, Mr. Harvard-Educated Constitutional Lawyer. Cite the LAW that gives you the right to whack U.S. Citizens whenever you like, while protecting the Non-Citizens using the same Constitution....where does it say THAT is O.K.?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply#21 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 3:51 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another Colonel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rareety...please see the 19's to see the discussion with the "lawyer"....who cannot answer the question either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #21.1 - Wed Nov 2, 2011 4:55 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  rareety

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Colonel,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I especially agree with 19.8.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #21.2 - Thu Nov 3, 2011 12:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Leave a Comment:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Newsvine Privacy Statement
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FUN STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Leaderboard |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • E-Mail Alerts |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Top of the Vine |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine Live |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine Archives |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • The Greenhouse |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  COMPANY STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Code of Honor |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Company Info |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Contact Us |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Jobs |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • User Agreement |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Privacy Policy |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • About our ads
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  LEGAL STUFF:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com