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MIKE OF THE NORTH

Just another guy trying to make his way.
Articles Posted: 25  Links Seeded: 8
Member Since: 12/2008  Last Seen: 5/15/2012

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Cranick Vs. South Fulton Fire Department

Sat Oct 9, 2010 10:37 AM EDT
us-news, gene-cranick, south-fulton-fire-department
By Mike of the North
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I realize there is no shortage of articles concerning the S. Fulton, TN fire dilema. A poll even shows that 75% say the fire department was wrong to let the home of the Cranick family burn. In a perfect world they may be right, but in a perfect world, laws, government, even the fire department themselves wouldn't be necessary and unfortunately all these things can conspire to get in the way of humanity. We live in a reality where people sue each other, not on a basis of right and wrong but simply because they can and because so long as the amount they ask for is less than the amount it would cost to contest it, they will most likely get it, deservedly or not. That brings me to the logistics of the ordeal at the Cranick fire.

The Cranick family home was not in South Fulton. It was in a rural part of the county outside South Fulton, a part of the county without a fire department. South Fulton Fire Dept, paid for by South Fulton taxes, not county taxes. South Fulton offered their services to residents outside city limits for a $75 annual fee.

The Cranick family had not paid their fee when a fire at their property became out of control while burning trash. The family called 911 several times and were declined service, based on their failure to pay the fee. Only after the spread to a neighboring property who did pay the fee did the fire department respond. After responding they proceeded to extinguish the fire at the neighboring property then watched the Cranick house burn. The Cranicks offered to pay the fee, in fact offered to pay what ever it took but were denied. Humanity tells us the fire department should have responded differently, however as I suggested before, we are sometimes confined by the reality of law and order.

A number of arguments have been made as to how the fire department could have handled the situation.

The fire department should have just put out the fire, that's what they're there for.

It's easy to let compassion get in the way of logic. If the fire department had put out the fire, they would have set the precedent that one only needs to pay when and if they have a fire. The $75 doesn't represent a cost for service but a contract fee. The rural areas out side S. Fulton city limits are not withing S. Fulton jurisdiction and because the S. Fulton fire department is an extension of the government of the city of S. Fulton, they had no jurisdiction to enter the property, even in the interest of public safety. By paying the $75 fee, the property owner authorizes entry for services.

The fire department could have put out the fire and billed the Cranick family for services or assesed a penalty.

The City of S. Fulton has no authority to require resident's outside city limits to accept its services. A penalty could not legally be imposed by the city for not paying. While the fire department did have a verbal agreement for the Cranick family to pay, verbal contracts rarely hold up in court. Contracts signed under distress often fail to hold up in court as well. So a verbal agreement, agreed upon under distress, would likely be tossed out. The city of S. Fulton could not put any sort of lien on the house and would have no way to recover whatever costs were incurred.

While it seems they may have had a moral and ethical obligation to fight the Cranick families fire, they also had legal responsibilities and liabilities to consider. Sadly these could have been aleviated by a different system but this was the system in place and the one put in place by the county voters. My heart goes out to the Cranick family who have suffered a great loss. There are many more places around the country with similar subscription fire services and hopefully some lessons can be learned.

I hope the system get's changed where the county can either establish their own fire department or contract through the cities. This would have been the only way of avoiding legal jurisdictional differences between the city and the county.

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  • Public Discussion (27)
boattrash

I still do not understand why they did not pay the $75.00 per year, that is the cheapest insurance around. $6.25 a month. Like dad said " If you are going to be dumb, you got to be tough".

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:12 AM EDT
hsquared-1401940

“We got the letter that it was due,” she said. “We were heading out to Lake Wappapello (in Missouri) that day and we stuck the mail in the camper and then forgot all about it. It was an oversight on our part. We did not refuse to pay.”
Mrs. Cranick said she also received a follow-up phone call from the City of South Fulton indicating they had not yet paid their rural fire subscription fee back during the enrollment period. She said she reminded her husband, who is retired from Goodyear and now works part-time for a farmer, but in the middle of other activities, it was put aside and, “I thought he’d get to it tomorrow.”
“You don’t expect things like this to happen, so you always procrastinate,” she said.

“It’s not those boys’ (the firefighters’) fault. They had to do what the boss tells them to

Apparently her son think's the fire chief is the boss, as he assaulted the fire chief, who was hospitalized as a result.

BTW, this is not the first time this type thing has happened in the past 20 years, that the fee system has been in place.

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:39 AM EDT
Reply
TheyreAllCrooks

The Cranick's should have paid the bill - they were negligent.

The FD should have put out the fire.
You don't send cops to watch a victim be raped NOR do you send the FD to watch someone's home burn down.

This "subscription" system was full of holes, allowing no room for human error.

What if this had been some elderly citizen who in a senior moment forgot to pay the $75 bucks? Do we burn granny's house down too?

Put out the friggin fire and send him a bill for the $75 plus costs and labor and whatever else you can tack on - but put out the friggin fire!

This is the fourth home that's gone up in smoke over $75 bucks...what does that tell you?

This is no way to run a public safety service.

  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:54 AM EDT
Mike of the North

The FD should have put out the fire.
You don't send cops to watch a victim be raped NOR do you send the FD to watch someone's home burn down.

For reasons I explained, they couldn't. For what it's worth though, fire department's routinely opt not to extinguish a fire, their purpose is to contain or control it, not protect an individuals property. A while back an unoccupied hotel burned locally. Due to limited resources they opted to hose neighboring buildings instead and contain the fire to the one and let it burn to the ground. Police are also under no obligation to stop a rape. Their only obligation is to investigate the crime. The will most likely stop it but not if it poses unreasonable risk to themselves.

  • 1 vote
#2.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:04 PM EDT
TheyreAllCrooks

This system was scrapped the day after the fire happened. That tells me they knew all along this was a bad move.

I fully understand where you're coming from - but this is America, not Somalia!

Limited resources? Why not just make it a countywdie system supported by tax dollars? The commissioners voted that down.

They could also get federal assistance - but these are teaPublicans for smaller gubment.

Or like I said....simply charge them for the costs...it is possible to do that.

There's lot's of options other than this insanity.

  • 1 vote
#2.2 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:12 PM EDT
TheyreAllCrooks

Police are also under no obligation to stop a rape.

Then they should turn in their badge and gun yesterday!

Are seriously telling us that a cop seeing some woman getting raped isn't "obligated" to intervene?

Investigate the crime AFTER witnessing it? Are you crazy?

Why? Because she didn't fork over $75 bucks?
Are you serious?

By your logic...the hero cops and firefighters of 9/11 weren't "obligated"...they should have considered their own safety first.

    #2.3 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 2:15 PM EDT
    Mike of the North

    By your logic...the hero cops and firefighters of 9/11 weren't "obligated"...they should have considered their own safety first.

    No, they weren't obligated. That's why they're called 'HEROS'. ABOVE and BEYOND the call the call of duty.

      #2.4 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 2:52 PM EDT
      TheyreAllCrooks

      The will most likely stop it but not if it poses unreasonable risk to themselves. BS! Any cop that does that should turn in his or her badge immediately!

      Their first job, swowrn under oath, is to protect and serve - NOT to take stand down orders from ahole backwoods mayors or put their safety over a helpless citizen!

      No cop in America will agree with you that it's OK for a cop to witness a rape, do nothing to stop it, then investigate it! I can't even believe you said that!

      By the way my brother is a cop...and I've seen him intervene in crimes even when he wasn't carrying his gun - that IS what real cops do!

      I sure hope you never get into a situation and a cop witnesses you getting carjacked or whatever, and just sits there eating his donut waiting for your attacker to leave - so he can investigate!

      Christ Almighty!

      • 1 vote
      #2.5 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:03 PM EDT
      Reply
      ktandnt

      This whole thing is rediculous... I see a simply solution.

      Implement the surcharge/dues/'membership' thing, make it the $75.00 a year. And then when someone (who doesn't pay) has a fire, the fire company comes, puts the fire out, and sends the homeowner a bill (I heard $600.00 an hour somewhere, which sounds about right.)

      In this case, Gene Cranick did/does have Homeowner's Insurance. So, the insurance company should have either made him pay the $75.00, or then they have to cover the loss... Or they just pay the Fire Department bill, and raise his premiums..

      If they don't have insurance, put a lien on the property for the 'bill', and then if they don't pay the region can treat it just like they didn't pay their taxes... and then just take the home.

      Ambulance companies have been doing this for years, if your a member, you get picked up and it's covered by your association dues, if you are not a member you still get picked up, but you also get sent a bill (for about $1,000.00). And if you don't pay it the bill is treated like any other...

      • 3 votes
      Reply#3 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:58 AM EDT
      Mike of the North

      Implement the surcharge/dues/'membership' thing, make it the $75.00 a year. And then when someone (who doesn't pay) has a fire, the fire company comes, puts the fire out, and sends the homeowner a bill

      The problem (again) is that a city, cannot force a non resident to accept its services.

      • 2 votes
      #3.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:07 PM EDT
      TheyreAllCrooks


      The problem (again) is that a city, cannot force a non resident to accept its services.

      Again, if they'd implement a countywide approach this is simple to resolve.

      This is all about politics and "small government" - it does NOT work where public safety is concerned.

      • 1 vote
      #3.2 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:23 PM EDT
      Mike of the North

      Again, if they'd implement a countywide approach this is simple to resolve.

      The point is this was not there at the time. The fire department was bound to policies in place at the time of the fire. Hopefully they will but vilifying the fire department is pointless.

      • 1 vote
      #3.3 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:12 PM EDT
      TheyreAllCrooks


      The fire department was bound to policies in place at the time of the fire. Hopefully they will but vilifying the fire department is pointless.

      The mayor should be fired, the fire chief should be fired, and every one of those commissioners should be fired too!

      This is no way to run a public safety operation.

      As for the firemen...I hope they can live with themselves and the decision they made to follow orders, stand down and watch a mans home burn to ashes.

      I haven't heard one fire fighter anywhere in America defend their actions.

      Sometimes you have to just do the right thing...everyone involved turned off their moral compass.

      I think most Americans think those firemen should've told that ahole mayor to fu&k off - and put out the fire!

      • 1 vote
      #3.4 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
      Reply
      BWil

      I think the family knew the fire was heading to the house (it started away from house, then went to a shed or garage, then headed to the house) and the fire department was not going to help and they could have saved their pets but didn't.

      I think it is a waste of time to look up to see if people has paid their fee.

      I think this state and county are behind times and need to fix this problem, the best solution is to have a county tax. But then again they probably will have to look up to see if the caller paid their taxes before responding to the fire.

      It is time for this county to vote out their mayor and officials who do not come up with a better solution to this problem and put ones in there that will.

      This proves that firefighters are NOT HEROS. They are only people who are heros when they get paid to be.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#4 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:26 PM EDT
      moral dilemma

      and if the firefighter is killed while saving the pets, will you go tell his or her children that they are short a parent? Think of the sacrifice that they make in doing this? The firefighter has to determine if the risk is acceptable to go in. After hearing all of the disregard for a firefighters life. Makes me think if it's worth saving anyone again. Give a life for you not your pet or possession. Ungreatful people, the firefighters life comes first, what good does it do if they don't look over the hazards and die because you say go.

        #4.1 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:16 AM EDT
        Reply
        tesla013

        What kills me is the close the barn door after........ response. The house is in ashes. No amount of commentary will rebuild it. And I would bet that though many feel very strongly and will get very vocal about it. None of these individuals will be picking up a hammer any time soon. The real question here is how did we as a community let it get this far? Where we watch as a families house burns for 75$. What does that say about us a whole? Does this signal to ANYONE how far from our collective humanity we have strayed? Does this signal the death nell for common sense and compassion?

        But if someone can get me there. I'm a framer I will help rebuild the house.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#5 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:33 PM EDT
        hsquared-1401940

        A few things to point out. The home was a double wide trailer, blocked up to be level, but no foundation. (If you watch the Olbermann video, this is quite evident.) This is, also, a large factor in dealing with fires out in the country (Most towns/cities do not permit these type structures). Should they have responded at the first fire... morally - yes. Mr. Cranick says they could have saved the trailer, etc. Was he referring to when he originally called or when the fireman finally arrived. Typically, if a trailer is on fire, when fireman arrive, they try to contain, unless is there suspicion someone is in the trailer.

        As to the 3 dogs and 1 cat... I can find no reference in local papers or the Paducah television station of their mention. The 1st mention is in the Olbermann video.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#6 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:17 PM EDT
        tesla013

        If it twere a trailer it was already ash when the firepeople arrived as trailers take about 10mins to burn completely to the ground.

        • 1 vote
        #6.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:31 PM EDT
        hsquared-1401940

        IF they had responded earlier, when the shed was on fire, the trailer might have been saved.

        There seems to be three themes to the outrage..

        1. The firemen stood around and watched a man's home burn down. Is this really what transpired?
        2. Firemen stood around while 4 pets were killed in a housefire. When did firemen know pets were inside the house and why didn't the occupants rescue the animals? An additional question would be whether the animals were in the shed or the trailer? (The grandson set the trash barrels afire, then went inside, took a shower and later came back out to see the shed on fire.) Given the later remarks of Mr. Cranick, they must have been in, around or under the trailer.
        3. That fireman would not respond to the original call about the fire.

        There is not enough information, imo, to warrant the outrage over 1 and 2.

        #3 us where the problem originates and this is not the first time fire service was denied. (This is the first time that the fireman responded to a fire next door and TV crews could arrive in time to get pictures of the trailer fire and the fireman in a field next door.) This has been a problem going back to 1987, in this area. Both sides know each other's arguments and nothing has changed. On Oct. 18th the county commissioners will vote on whether to extend the $75 to the entire county. It will happen again and again. As for the elections. The city and county mayors and commissioners are non-partisan and the election cycle was completed in August.

        • 1 vote
        #6.2 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 4:00 PM EDT
        Reply
        calliemom

        People keep comparing this to rape and murder. This was a house, a family's belongings. If they wanted to keep them they should have paid the $75 dollars. Just like the last time this happened to him and he took $75 out of his pocket and paid as the firefighters put it out. How many times are we going to allow people to assume the only need to pay when it's convient for them while the rest continue to pay their way like the good citizens they are? He got what he paid for!

          Reply#7 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
          TheyreAllCrooks

          So what would they have done if this was some 80 year old lady who simply forgot to fork over her $75 because, well, she's 80, and 80 year olds ferget sh!t?

          Do we burn granny's house down too?
          This system is obsolete and ishould be fixed immediately...

          Why not just make it part of the county tax...that would ensure everybody pays...

          If they don't pay the tax you put a lien on the property like they do practically everywhere else in civilized America.

          It's really pretty simpel - but these morons want to remain in the 1800's!

            #7.1 - Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:47 PM EDT
            Reply
            moral dilemma

            volunteer city fire dept. no legal obligation in rural areas, nobody in the trailer, no reason to break orders. and they waited til it was down. sounds to me like they stayed to make sure it was safe enough to leave. The key word that the media likes to leave out is "VOLUNTEER'

            • 1 vote
            Reply#8 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:08 AM EDT
            monk02

            Wow I can't believe that they didn't pay it the 2 times they were reminded... The second time I'd freak and do it RIGHT THEN!

            And I am really surprised that the insurance company is paying them anything... I would think that if you lapse on a basic protection charge, that they would have a clause that lets the ins. company off the hook...

              Reply#9 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:30 AM EDT
              moral dilemma

              Complaints from people who would never dream of giving their own life for another, would never understand the ultimate sacrifice that a firefight would make. I guess the firefighters family means nothing to these people. I have no respect for the people with this kind of mindset. And before this I had respect for everyone's life.

                Reply#10 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:31 AM EDT
                downhillracer

                This is just another reflection in the state of affairs in the United States today . We allow a killer to get the most prestigious job in sports today (Michael Vick quarterback of NFL team). Our moral compass is so off base that trained fireman stand around and watch houses burn. We complain about the power struggles in government. The bottom line is we talk a lot about values, but all we really care about is ourselves.

                  Reply#11 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:23 AM EDT
                  moral dilemma

                  just a situation where the people of the county have refused a tax to build and operate a rural department. the 2008 proposal was rejected. why would it be rejected? the fee is not for the actual service, its for budget purposes e.g. training, repairs, equipment, etc. a house has no moral value to many people, as it should not really have any. Money and Greed is the focus here, and not by the city vol. FD

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#12 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:12 PM EDT
                  downhillracer

                  This action of letting the house burn has nothing to do with taxes and budgets. (that is another problem) but has everything to do with moral value. Just like a killer being a role model in the NFL. (yes he should have a job but behind the scene} we cannot have killers in the limelight.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#13 - Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:43 PM EDT
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